|
|
Post by propertymoose on Feb 1, 2015 14:02:13 GMT
Hopefully the above answers your query about the rent. Thanks again for pointing this out. This fee is for general rental agency services so includes the sourcing and vetting of tenants, collection of rent and deposits, management of any maintenance etc. All of the known costs (e.g. insurance and accounting fees) are specified on each investment page within the finance tab. If there are any other costs (e.g. an uninsurable bit of maintenance), we will use the rental monies to cover the costs. If there isn't enough rent in the SPV to cover the cost, we will lend the money to the SPV from our contingency fund and get repaid once the property is sold. This is designed to ensure that we never have to go back to the investors for extra cash.
Our 15% is taken from the net costs so, if a loan of £2,000 is needed to be repaid on exit, this would be repaid before our 15% is calculated.
The 85% rule is currently under review and is likely to be changed to 75%. While understanding that this may still be high in your view, the reason we make it 75% is to give everyone the opportunity to have their say and to reduce the risk of someone with a large stake controlling the property ahead of someone with only £500. We are truly trying to democratise property investment and hope that this goes some way in doing so. As with all of our investments, they should be treated as an investment made for the relevant term (e.g. 2 years). However, as you own shares, you can sell your shares at any time and can find your own buyer, or can ask us to put the shares out to our investors to try and sell them for you. Of course, we can't guarantee a sale but the option is there if you need it.
In terms of registration, as with all crowdfunding platforms we are required to ask investors to register before we can display full details of our investments. This is to ensure that only those who meet the relevant criteria see financial promotions. Our sign up process takes less than a minute and just requires your email, name and phone number, and then for you to complete the relevant certification (high net/sophisticated/everyday investor).
In terms of volume of deals, we have access to a large number of properties but don't want to flood the platform and see a wider spread of capital. We expect the flow and type of deals to rise as our investor numbers continue to grow.
|
|
|
|
Post by propertymoose on Feb 1, 2015 14:03:50 GMT
As for the name, we get a lot of questions about it! It all comes down to standing out and having a brand that is marketable online and off. We now rank number 1 in google for most key terms for our industry which is due, partly, due to our branding and name standing out "from the crowd" (sorry!).
We are a serious investment platform though with un-rivalled access to properties across the country and supported by some key individuals. We have just made some very important hires having recently been backed by a VC institution who is supporting our growth. We'll soon be updating our "Meet the Team" page so please do keep checking back to see more about all of our backgrounds.
I hope all of this helps. I'll be checking the forum regularly but if anyone would like to raise specific questions please post them here, send me a personal message, or drop me a line. My email is on the website or you can use our chat function as I think I am not supposed to post it in this forum.
Kind regards
Andrew Gardiner
CEO
|
|
webwiz
Posts: 1,133
Likes: 210
|
Post by webwiz on Feb 1, 2015 17:59:02 GMT
Thanks for that comprehensive reply Andrew.
Finally, we make our profit at the end of the investment terms through a share in the net rise in property value ('profit'). We take 15% of the net profit after deducting any sale costs but before any corporation tax in the SPV. This is due to the fact the 15% profit fee is contractual so is an allowable deduction for corporation tax purposes - reducing the amount of tax payable in the SPV. The fee is zero rated for VAT purposes too. As an example, if the property makes £10,000 profit and there are £2,000 of costs, our fee would be 15% of £8,000 leaving £6,800 subject to corporation tax giving £5,440 to the investors. You can see this calculation on the finance tab of each investment and more on the process here - goo.gl/s3ZGx7
Does anyone know the tax treatment of the gain for investors? Is it any different from any other shareholding?
How will the exit work exactly? Do shareholders receive a dividend or does PM buy back and cancel the shares?
Some more info on the secondary market would be useful. Will it be done through the site (I can't see it) or otherwise? How can a potential purchaser know that there is anything on offer? When trialling a new platform I generally put something on the SM at an optimistic price, just to get the hang of the system. I know others do the same.
The early signs are positive, and I can envisage that this could become my favourite platform, giving a decent income plus a share of any increase in property values, without any of the hassle of being an actual BTL landlord. I have posted my queries here rather that direct to PM as I think the answers may be of interest to all investors.
|
|
mikes1531
Member of DD Central
Posts: 6,453
Likes: 2,320
|
Post by mikes1531 on Feb 1, 2015 21:53:52 GMT
If there are any other costs (e.g. an uninsurable bit of maintenance), we will use the rental monies to cover the costs. If there isn't enough rent in the SPV to cover the cost, we will lend the money to the SPV from our contingency fund and get repaid once the property is sold. This is designed to ensure that we never have to go back to the investors for extra cash. : I can see why you wouldn't want to have to go back to the investors for extra cash, so I can see the need for Property Moose to lend money to the SPV on occasion so that the SPV can pay the unexpected bills. But I'm surprised that the loan wouldn't be repaid ASAP out of future rents rather than waiting until the property is sold. My first thought was that this was very generous of PM, but then I realised you hadn't said that the loan would be interest-free. So I have to ask... What rate of interest will the SPV be charged by PM for these loans?
|
|
|
|
Post by propertymoose on Feb 2, 2015 19:26:43 GMT
Does anyone know the tax treatment of the gain for investors? Is it any different from any other shareholding? How will the exit work exactly? Do shareholders receive a dividend or does PM buy back and cancel the shares? Some more info on the secondary market would be useful. Will it be done through the site (I can't see it) or otherwise? How can a potential purchaser know that there is anything on offer? When trialling a new platform I generally put something on the SM at an optimistic price, just to get the hang of the system. I know others do the same. The early signs are positive, and I can envisage that this could become my favourite platform, giving a decent income plus a share of any increase in property values, without any of the hassle of being an actual BTL landlord. I have posted my queries here rather that direct to PM as I think the answers may be of interest to all investors. Hi Webwiz Apologies for the delay in my response. Busy times! In terms of the tax, we currently pay all returns as dividends which are paid after any corporation tax. As such, they carry a 10% tax credit so, for basic rate tax payers, there is no additional tax to pay. Others will need to account for the dividends on their self-assessments. For an exit, we will take advice at the time to establish the most tax efficient (but achievable) route of exit for shareholders. This may be via dividend, buy-back or sale of the shares themselves if the property attracts stamp duty. As with all major decisions, investors will have the chance to vote on the outcome of the advice. We are actually due to release a great guide to the tax position from one of our accountant partners so, if you've managed to sign up to the site yet, you'll see a notification on Friday. If not, you will be able to find it on our economoose blog in due course. I do think that the tax position will change over time as we will move to a slightly different structure that results in zero corporation tax but individuals paying their own income tax on any returns (like with P2P). Watch this space! We currently deal with secondary trading offline but will be coding a market place that I think will be ready for release in Q2. At the moment, you can sell your shares at any time to a buyer you find, or can ask us to find a buyer from our pool of investors. Glad to hear you like the platform so far. I hope you can see that we really do want to build the best and most useable platform out there so feedback and questions are key! Kind regards Andrew
|
|
|
|
Post by propertymoose on Feb 2, 2015 19:32:18 GMT
propertymoose: I can see why you wouldn't want to have to go back to the investors for extra cash, so I can see the need for Property Moose to lend money to the SPV on occasion so that the SPV can pay the unexpected bills. But I'm surprised that the loan wouldn't be repaid ASAP out of future rents rather than waiting until the property is sold. My first thought was that this was very generous of PM, but then I realised you hadn't said that the loan would be interest-free. So I have to ask... What rate of interest will the SPV be charged by PM for these loans? Hi Mikes1531 Again, apologies for the slight delay in my response. The reason we don't ask for the loan to be repaid out of future rents is that it would reduce an individual's rental yields and we would much rather see our members re-investing those returns with us and building their portfolio. At the moment, we do not change any interest on the loan (albeit we haven't had to make any). As we grow it may be the case that we have to borrow money ourselves to make these loans - in which case we would look to recoup or money at the relevant rate. But I do hope that this will not be the case as we are building a contingency fund specifically to deal with loans. Please do let me know if you have any other questions or comments as I'm more than happy to help. Kind regards Andrew
|
|
shimself
Member of DD Central
Posts: 2,563 
Likes: 1,171
|
Post by shimself on Feb 2, 2015 21:01:00 GMT
Can you compare your proposition to that of THC The Housecrowd?
|
|
bigfoot12
Member of DD Central
Posts: 1,817
Likes: 816
|
Post by bigfoot12 on Feb 3, 2015 9:40:33 GMT
I do think that the tax position will change over time as we will move to a slightly different structure that results in zero corporation tax but individuals paying their own income tax on any returns (like with P2P). Watch this space! Hi, thank you for joining us and filling in some of the details. Aren't most UK taxpayers better off with dividends (10% for basic rate payers, 32.5% for higher rate payers)?
|
|
|
|
Post by propertymoose on Feb 3, 2015 16:31:26 GMT
I do think that the tax position will change over time as we will move to a slightly different structure that results in zero corporation tax but individuals paying their own income tax on any returns (like with P2P). Watch this space! Hi, thank you for joining us and filling in some of the details. Aren't most UK taxpayers better off with dividends (10% for basic rate payers, 32.5% for higher rate payers)? Hi Bigfoot12 We have tasked our Finance Director with the job of looking into the structure to see if there is a better way for our investors. At the moment, we do pay by way of dividends but I just wanted to mention that we continue to look at the structure to make sure that we are doing the best for everyone. Kind regards Andrew
|
|
|
|
Post by propertymoose on Feb 3, 2015 16:41:43 GMT
Can you compare your proposition to that of THC The Housecrowd? Hi Shimself I really don't want to discuss differences between platforms and urge you to look into each and their pros and cons. Fees, transparency, trust are important considerations. You can find more information about our fees in this feed. I'd be more than happy to speak to you on the phone and answer any questions you have about Property Moose and our structure if you'd like to email our support address (on the website as I can't give it here) and let me know a time and number to call. Kind regards Andrew
|
|
|
|
Post by johnsnow on Jul 16, 2015 4:41:06 GMT
Hi Andrew and all,
I have just recently come across you platform, and Property Partner's, also saw THC on Dragons Den and based on all these there is something I dont really understand.
Why is it worth while to provide such a crowd funding platform?
THC made 460k (if remember well) in 2-3 years and no profit!
PM makes no money on fees (as you said above) outsource rental, only gambling on property prices, so technically no profit in the mean time.
PP charges 2% + 12.5% management, raised 6M, very rough calculation 250k income in 6 months, at least 5-6 staff, no profit (I believe)
So, how does it all makes sense?
I would feel really comfortable to invest in companies that makes profit, actually a lot of money out of me and others (meanwhile I am getting my share of course), as that is a secure business model, something you can built a strong business on.
So, I am sure I am missing a point here, why it is worth while, anyone could share a light?
Thanks
John
|
|
|
|
Post by propertymoose on Jul 16, 2015 15:23:17 GMT
Hi John
Thanks for the question and for showing an interest in the property crowdfunding space! I also hope you enjoyed Sunday's show....not a great reflection on the sector as a whole but we have seen a lot of traffic so owe THC a thank you.
As for profits, it is very hard for us to make a profit at the moment as we put all of our revenue back into growing the business. To date, we have spent well over £1m on developing our technology (including employee costs) in addition to our general operational costs and marketing. Creating a new sector costs money and we are happy to spend it as we take a long-term view on the business. It is worth pointing out that Property Moose and Property Parter are backed by Venture Capital firms who provide working capital to the business.
Our technology will never be completely finished as we will always strive to innovate and deliver a market leading platform to our members. But, as the business grows and we scale with members and properties, our costs will (hopefully) not grow at the same pace which means that we will start to see a margin on our fees. This will continue to develop as the business grows which is when we will start to see some profits. A happy day for me having been developing Property Moose now for over 2.5years!
The 15% fee is really where we see our real profits from today. However, when we have 100,000 members and start to fund millions of pounds a month, we will also then see some profit from the upfront fees.
Hope that helps but I'm more than happy to have a call with you if you would find that helpful. Please just email andrew@.... and we can find a suitable time.
Kind regards
Andrew
|
|
|
|
Post by cooldad on Mar 27, 2017 15:06:41 GMT
I invested £500 in a property with Property Moose for 2 years. My return for the £500 after 2 years was £518.67. You can make of this as you wish, but the proof is in the end result.
|
|
ben
Posts: 2,020
Likes: 589
|
Post by ben on Mar 27, 2017 15:53:22 GMT
I invested £500 in a property with Property Moose for 2 years. My return for the £500 after 2 years was £518.67. You can make of this as you wish, but the proof is in the end result. Which property did you invest in?
|
|
hazellend
Member of DD Central
Posts: 2,363
Likes: 2,180
|
Post by hazellend on Mar 27, 2017 17:08:07 GMT
I invested £500 in a property with Property Moose for 2 years. My return for the £500 after 2 years was £518.67. You can make of this as you wish, but the proof is in the end result. Is that total return including dividends? To be honest, at this stage, I'll be happy to get all my money back with some of my long standing unrented turds, and unfortunately, I've been investing much higher sums of money
|
|
