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Post by gramsky on Jun 24, 2024 17:55:12 GMT
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Jun 24, 2024 18:06:56 GMT
He seems to almost want Russia to attack the US. Do you think that will happen? I don't but do sadly see some escalation in Ukraine.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Jun 24, 2024 18:12:40 GMT
Hal who? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hal_Turner"Harold Charles "Hal" Turner (born March 15, 1962) is an American far-right political commentator and convicted felon from North Bergen, New Jersey.
Turner's viewpoints typically encompass Holocaust denial, conspiracy theories, white supremacy, and have included calls for assassination of government officials. In August 2010, he was convicted for making threats against three federal judges with the 7th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, for which he spent two years in prison.
Turner has sporadically hosted The Hal Turner Show, usually on shortwave radio station WBCQ, since 2002, as well as a corresponding blog, which has changed URLs frequently and has spread hoaxes and fake news."Gotcha. Anyway... There is a grain of fact somewhere behind it all, although - quelle surprise - it's not quite as imminently doomsday-worthy as Mr Melodrama suggests. apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-war-us-missiles-2d2632712540897e2161f72c14bae44fAre you SURE you want to do that, Vlad? Because I don't think that would end well for anybody, but especially for you.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Jun 24, 2024 19:18:14 GMT
What is that? Drop some missiles on the US or UK ? And why "especially" Russia? Have you forgotten what happens in a nuclear war? Sadly I think there are one or two ultra hawks in charge of policy - maybe not quite as extreme as you but getting there.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Jun 24, 2024 21:15:54 GMT
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ilmoro
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'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
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Post by ilmoro on Jun 24, 2024 21:38:04 GMT
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Jun 24, 2024 22:46:00 GMT
Good find there whether or not it was linked off Adrian's article. However, I don't really understand why anyone would see EU expansion as being aggressive? NATO is a different matter.
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Jun 25, 2024 6:36:05 GMT
Good find there whether or not it was linked off Adrian's article. However, I don't really understand why anyone would see EU expansion as being aggressive? NATO is a different matter. For all its flaws the EU stands for, and expects, certain things from its members eg:- Free and fair elections Independent judiciary Free press Human rights Rule of law Adherence to a level of common regulation eg competition, environmental, budgetary etc The above are antithetical to the Putin / siloviki / oligarch regime currently in power in Russia. Now consider the accession of Eastern European countries that used to be part of the Soviet Union / Warsaw Pact to the EU. It's been troubled in places (and remains so) but in the main has been an astonishing success story. Compare Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Poland, Hungary, Czechia, Romania, Slovenia with... Belorus. Now imagine Ukraine similarly succeeding. A happy, healthy, free, economically successful country that's not under the heel of the security services and oligarchs looking across the border with Russia thinking "poor sods". Now imagine you live in Belgorod and are looking back across the border at Ukraine. Perhaps you might be thinking something along the lines of "if they can do it why can't we"? Can you see why Putin and Patrushev feel threatened by this?
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Post by bracknellboy on Jun 25, 2024 6:55:38 GMT
Good find there whether or not it was linked off Adrian's article. However, I don't really understand why anyone would see EU expansion as being aggressive? NATO is a different matter. For all its flaws the EU stands for, and expects, certain things from its members eg:- Free and fair elections Independent judiciary Free press Human rights Rule of law Adherence to a level of common regulation eg competition, environmental, budgetary etc The above are antithetical to the Putin / siloviki / oligarch regime currently in power in Russia. Now consider the accession of Eastern European countries that used to be part of the Soviet Union / Warsaw Pact to the EU. It's been troubled in places (and remains so) but in the main has been an astonishing success story. Compare Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Poland, Hungary, Czechia, Romania, Slovenia with... Belorus. Now imagine Ukraine similarly succeeding. A happy, healthy, free, economically successful country that's not under the heel of the security services and oligarchs looking across the border with Russia thinking "poor sods". Now imagine you live in Belgorod and are looking back across the border at Ukraine. Perhaps you might be thinking something along the lines of "if they can do it why can't we"? Can you see why Putin and Patroshev feel threatened by this? This is precisely why Putin saw Ukraine joining the EU as a threat. Not to "Russia", but to him. But dresses it up as a threat to "Russia". It's precisely why he pressured his puppet Yanukovych to pull away from moving closer to the EU, against wishes of the majority of Ukrainians. And why Putin was so p*****d when he was pushed out of office as a result. He lost his stooge. Truly that is when Putin decided he was going to need force because he was not going to be able to control Ukraine through a stooge. It left him unable to put a lid on Ukrainians express wishes to be more westward looking and thereby act as a "dangerous" role model for his subjects. Anyone that regurgitates Putin's line about being "provoked" into invading Ukr without understanding this - and the underlying rightful imperialistic belief that it belies - really should be thinking carefully about slavishly repeating Moscow's mantra.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Jun 25, 2024 12:01:44 GMT
Good find there whether or not it was linked off Adrian's article. However, I don't really understand why anyone would see EU expansion as being aggressive? NATO is a different matter. For all its flaws the EU stands for, and expects, certain things from its members eg:- Free and fair elections Independent judiciary Free press Human rights Rule of law Adherence to a level of common regulation eg competition, environmental, budgetary etc The above are antithetical to the Putin / siloviki / oligarch regime currently in power in Russia. Now consider the accession of Eastern European countries that used to be part of the Soviet Union / Warsaw Pact to the EU. It's been troubled in places (and remains so) but in the main has been an astonishing success story. Compare Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Poland, Hungary, Czechia, Romania, Slovenia with... Belorus. Now imagine Ukraine similarly succeeding. A happy, healthy, free, economically successful country that's not under the heel of the security services and oligarchs looking across the border with Russia thinking "poor sods". Now imagine you live in Belgorod and are looking back across the border at Ukraine. Perhaps you might be thinking something along the lines of "if they can do it why can't we"? Can you see why Putin and Patrushev feel threatened by this? Ah, but there's a fatal flaw in your slightly patronising analysis. Until a couple of years ago Russia was fairly happy. Even now Russians live pretty decent lives by and large - we're not talking about the Soviet Union you know? There's a military draft to avoid and strict laws relating to commenting on the military plus restrictions now on travel and some specialised parts for some hi-tech western goods are hard to come by but generally its not a bad lot at all. Tough for some just like in the west its tough for some. But what are facts? Lets just go on incorrectly believing the place doesn't have any supermarkets like ours choc full of every product you can think of. Now that out of the way, there is nevertheless _some_ value in your point. But that mythical "pull of the west" is a tiny threat compared to Nato membership I think you would agree ?
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Jun 25, 2024 12:08:10 GMT
Eh. If you don't agree with me... that's fine ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) .
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Jun 25, 2024 15:42:14 GMT
Ah, but there's a fatal flaw in your slightly patronising analysis. Until a couple of years ago Russia was fairly happy. Even now Russians live pretty decent lives by and large - we're not talking about the Soviet Union you know? Really...? Life expectancy of 65 for men, 10 years less than women. 79 in the UK. Median salary of $630/mo, with half the population saying it doesn't cover basic expenses - www.reuters.com/world/europe/almost-half-russians-say-salary-does-not-cover-basic-spending-survey-2023-10-23/Official figures say ~10% are under poverty line. Asked to grade satisfaction with quality of life, Russians averaged 5.5 vs 6.7 for OECD average. Quality of Life index - Russia 66th globally, 106, vs UK 26th 160 and US 15th 174 - and don't say "but it's the war" - up from 72nd in 2015, UK down from 16th, US down from 4th. www.numbeo.com/quality-of-life/rankings_by_country.jspNo, I don't think I'd like to live in Putin's Russia one little bit, thank you very much.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Jun 25, 2024 15:49:24 GMT
Ah, but there's a fatal flaw in your slightly patronising analysis. Until a couple of years ago Russia was fairly happy. Even now Russians live pretty decent lives by and large - we're not talking about the Soviet Union you know? Really...? Life expectancy of 65 for men, 10 years less than women. 79 in the UK. Median salary of $630/mo, with half the population saying it doesn't cover basic expenses - www.reuters.com/world/europe/almost-half-russians-say-salary-does-not-cover-basic-spending-survey-2023-10-23/Official figures say ~10% are under poverty line. Asked to grade satisfaction with quality of life, Russians averaged 5.5 vs 6.7 for OECD average. Quality of Life index - Russia 66th globally, 106, vs UK 26th 160 and US 15th 174 - and don't say "but it's the war" - up from 72nd in 2015, UK down from 16th, US down from 4th. www.numbeo.com/quality-of-life/rankings_by_country.jspNo, I don't think I'd like to live in Putin's Russia one little bit, thank you very much. Most salaries, like in Ukraine are typically not declared to avoid tax. Find out via a .ru property portal (i.e. Rightmove equivalent) how much rents are and how much flats and houses are in different cities in Russia. You'll find tens of millions of people living quite comfortably paying rent well over $1000 per month. Even in Ukraine before the war, which is much poorer than Russia, you'll see most people getting by ok if not exactly rich. This is definitely a case of your superficial web scraping not providing much meaning.
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Jun 25, 2024 15:52:34 GMT
My point about economics wasn't about the presence or absence of supermarkets, or what might or might not be on the shelves (though god knows Russia has a long and rich history of having nothing on the shelves).
My point was that the norms expected of an EU country (vis free and fair elections, an independent judiciary, a free press, support and respect for human rights, acceptance of the rule of law and adherence to a level of common regulation eg competition, environmental, budgetary etc), when seen as a foundation for a successful, happy, free country that rejects the idea that autocrats have a right to rule indefinitely holds up a very harsh mirror to Russia.
That is threatening to Putin and his regime.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Jun 25, 2024 20:13:37 GMT
My point about economics wasn't about the presence or absence of supermarkets, or what might or might not be on the shelves (though god knows Russia has a long and rich history of having nothing on the shelves). My point was that the norms expected of an EU country (vis free and fair elections, an independent judiciary, a free press, support and respect for human rights, acceptance of the rule of law and adherence to a level of common regulation eg competition, environmental, budgetary etc), when seen as a foundation for a successful, happy, free country that rejects the idea that autocrats have a right to rule indefinitely holds up a very harsh mirror to Russia. That is threatening to Putin and his regime. I used to play badminton with a Chinese bloke at work. He had some quite interesting stories and was certainly open in critizing the china government when we got on to politics. But the thing is, most people don't care about the things you list. You or I cannot reasonably change anything unless you have huge and highly exceptional personal skills and a lot of support. So we just moan about whoever and get on with life. My impression of China is that people really don't care too much that they need to be careful in critizing the government or the status-quo (some odd fusion of "communism" and market economics). They care far more about what life they have - education, schools, jobs, entertainment etc etc. Like us though, there is nothing to stop them joining the "communist" party and beginning a sideline or even a full time career in politics. But really like here, only a tiny, tiny proportion of folk care about any of that. I suspect Russia is similar notwithstanding growing resement at the military draft and niggles with sanctions etc.
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