jnm21
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Post by jnm21 on Mar 27, 2017 22:58:43 GMT
Having dipped my toe in PM & not stopped until I am waist deep, I have had to look into the tax situation promptly! As a basic rate tax payer, on the shares front, am I correct in saying that I pay no tax on the first £5000 per annum of share dividend? As I understand it this applies to the rent/'interest' paid by the SPVs. My understanding is that on completion of the term, in most cases the shares will be sold & thus payments are liable to CGT not treated as dividend. www.gov.uk/tax-on-dividends/how-dividends-are-taxedMoving on to CGT, wow, what a learning curve! My first observation is that the statement downloadable on PM is not sufficient, being as labelled on a FIFO (first in, first out) basis, where it is much more complicated! My understanding is that I do not pay CGT on the first £11,100 per year. My understanding here is that shares in the same SPV are taken as average cost (including secondary market fee where applicable) over all shares owned when deciding any profit liable to CGT, with two overriding factors; - Any shares bought on the same day are treated as being sold first (even if perhaps bought later than the sale)
- Any shares bought in the 30 days immediately following the day of purchase (again despite being bought after the sale), with the caveat that the seller must be UK domiciled for tax purposes at the point of sale.
www.gov.uk/government/publications/shares-and-capital-gains-tax-hs284-self-assessment-helpsheet/hs284-shares-and-capital-gains-tax-2016#how-you-work-out-the-gain-under-the-bed-and-breakfasting-ruleThe obvious question here is how the heck do I know the tax status of the seller when via the secondary market I don't know who they are (presuming that PM don't buy & then sell the share to me)? Am I safer to assume that they are or are not if I don't know? For example I invest (primary investment) at £10, sell at £10.25, then within 30 days buy back for £10.20 (including 2% PM SM fee), my understanding is that 'bed & breakfasting' rules benefit me by reducing the amount exposed to CGT from 25p (the actual profit I made at the point I sold) to 5p (the net profit I made when instead calculated against the re-purchase cost after fee). I want to do a spreadsheet to monitor my position (I will be happy to use the £1,100 of my allowance, I just want to be sure that I know where I am). This 30 day malarkey makes it fun - what if I buy & sell the same shares twice in 30 days? I appreciate any advice.
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bigfoot12
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Post by bigfoot12 on Mar 28, 2017 7:09:49 GMT
I can't give you any advice as I have no qualifications in this matter. I do think that you are correct that the first £5k of dividends are tax free this tax year and next tax year, but Hammond dropped the amount to £2k from the tax year after that.
For CGT you describe sounds like the section 104 holding and applies to securities (certainly listed shares and quite possibly all shares). It is your status when you sell that matters, not the status of the person who sold to you. And without double checking about £11k sounds right as the CGT free amount.
Your example is correct as far as I know, but would normally be a disadvantage, because your holding would still have a purchase price of £10.
Let me extend you example slightly - Imagine you owned 40,000 shares. After some period of time you sell them all and make 25p on each, you then purchase them back again after either 28 days or 38 days for £10.20, and then a year later you sell them all for £10.45. a) Sale and purchase after 28 days. As you state 5p capital gain so £2,000 CGT this year (no tax) and £18,000 gain next year so CGT to pay on about £7,000. b) Sale and purchase after 38 days. A 25p gain this year so £10,000 CGT this year and £10,000 next year.
But I'm sure there are examples which it might be useful to buy something back within 30 days to move a tax liability to a different year.
I tried a spreadsheet for my shares, but I couldn't get the section 104 holding to work well, so I coded it in Java.
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jnm21
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Post by jnm21 on Mar 28, 2017 7:48:04 GMT
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jnm21
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Post by jnm21 on Mar 28, 2017 7:55:50 GMT
For CGT you describe sounds like the section 104 holding and applies to securities (certainly listed shares and quite possibly all shares). It is your status when you sell that matters, not the status of the person who sold to you. And without double checking about £11k sounds right as the CGT free amount. Having read what you said & re-read the below, I think that the below is unclear, but thanks for clarifying. Can I check that you believe these rules apply to PM shares?
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bigfoot12
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Post by bigfoot12 on Mar 28, 2017 9:45:17 GMT
Can I check that you believe these rules apply to PM shares? I'm sorry I don't know. I don't have any PM holdings, and whilst I have similar holdings I've never considered buying back anything I've sold so I haven't had to think about it. It would seem to apply to all securities. I don't know the extent of securities.
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Post by ragtagarmy on Apr 28, 2017 17:40:47 GMT
Start at the beginning, do you actually need to pay any CGT, or report any transactions? I am not an expert, and this is not advice, but when I found myself in a similar position I started by looking here: www.gov.uk/capital-gains-tax/overviewTwo things worth bearing in mind: i) Just because you don't owe any tax doesn't necessarily mean you don't need to report gains or losses, as mentioned on page 5, Work out if you need to pay ii) You can also report losses, and then use them against gains in subsequent years.
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jnm21
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Post by jnm21 on Jun 21, 2017 22:51:34 GMT
Hello again folks. Thanks for the advice again folks. I'm after some more!
If I want to buy 2 shares at just over £500 each, I get quoted £10 stamp duty; is there anything to stop me buying in two transactions to avoid this?
Thanks in advance.
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jnm21
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Post by jnm21 on Mar 18, 2018 14:10:57 GMT
Hi folks, a year later & I am back - clearly only being in PM for a short part of the 2016/17 tax year & having only been in P2P previously in a small way via RS, doing nothing was an option. I am now increasingly losing sleep over the 2017/18 tax year. I am looking advice, but also happy to put my shoulder to the wheel & do research. Please treat anything I say as a question - I am certainly not well positioned to give advice on Tax (well not outside PAYE, which is my home topic ). 1) I think that the first believe I have is key to confirm; the treatment of loan investments (e.g. PMFs) is vastly different to BTL & BTS (non-PMFs); the former being treated as interest, involving your PSA (unless you are 'lucky' enough to not have one, i.e. be a very high earner). Anyone think this is wrong? 2) I believe that the cashbacks paid by PM are not subject to tax. The best source I can find on this is a very old, but still current I believe, statement of practice; www.gov.uk/government/publications/statement-of-practice-4-1997/statement-of-practice-4-19973) Looking at loans (PMFs), I had thought that SM purchases/disposals would be taxed as if the premium received was interest or the premium paid reduced any interest received; e.g. an 8% loan at a 3.5% premium would be treated as the seller getting a 3.5% interest (like closing an interest earning account early) & the buyer getting 4.5% interest when the 8% interest is paid. This post by aj p2pindependentforum.com/post/254229/thread suggests that the seller has no tax liability (if they bought on the primary market) & the buyer pays tax on the full 8%. Does this seem right? What if the seller had bought at a 2% premium on a secondary market? I tried to find info on gov.uk; would this apply www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/savings-and-investment-manual/saim11010? Is this the most relevant source; www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/corporate-finance-manual/cfm31120 - it seems to confirm what aj said about the difference between PM & SM trades: "Acquisition does not include setting up the loan relationship" To be continued...
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pom
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Post by pom on Mar 18, 2018 15:14:24 GMT
As far as 3 is concerned I would say have a peek at your not-yet-complete Statement of Returns and see how PM think it should be treated (haven't traded any loans myself so I don't know). (Your assumptions on 1&2 match what they report)
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jnm21
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Post by jnm21 on Mar 18, 2018 16:48:59 GMT
As far as 3 is concerned I would say have a peek at your not-yet-complete Statement of Returns and see how PM think it should be treated (haven't traded any loans myself so I don't know). (Your assumptions on 1&2 match what they report) Thanks pom. I will look at that, however I am reluctant to rely on the PM reporting; quite simply they make that many mistakes, eh, I'd rather rely on advice off a forum. That sounds crazy, but if you look at recent performances, they even messed up the exit vote options & had to be put straight by us. 4) Is anyone worried about the connected people rules - where the SM was wholly anonymous, how would you know if you bought from or sold to your brother-in-law, etc.?
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Post by ragtagarmy on Mar 21, 2018 11:25:59 GMT
This in no way constitutes advice professional or other. You might find more certainty in forums dedicated to finance and accounting like www.taxationweb.co.uk/forum/ or direct from HMRC who you can ring or web chat with, although my last attempt to gain clarification on a simple point I'd go with web chat so you can keep a copy to show you were just doing what they advised you to do... Cashback is generally not taxable, although there are exceptions. From memory it is treated as a discount on the price paid, rather than income, but if you are talking about payments made due to the fallow period between committing your money and the shares being issued is this not paid at a stated % rate? That sounds like interest.
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jnm21
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Post by jnm21 on Mar 22, 2018 9:00:33 GMT
Thanks ragtagarmy. I didn't know that there were taxation forums (clearly never thought about it)! With regard to the cashback on initial investments, I believe from the statement posted in point 2, unless you think it is not current, that they are fully tax free: Can I ask if anyone was in PMF SPV 77 LOAN from the primary market only with no SM activity, if they can check what elements are listed on their PM statement of returns? I bought a number of shares on the PM & then sold 1, bought 1 & sold one - basically PM are treating my whole holding as liable to CGT, when really only 2 of my shares had any SM activity. I haven't got a clue if this is right! In any case, thank you very much pom for your advice - the SOR shows that I am many times under the various thresholds & can sleep soundly once again - THANK YOU!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2018 11:42:43 GMT
Can I suggest that you stop using FLAs to describe your issues, I cannot BA to wade my way through this BS to try and offer any advice. Genuinely I'd love to help but I just think the info is lacking as you are speaking in code.
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pom
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Post by pom on Mar 22, 2018 13:18:16 GMT
Thanks ragtagarmy . I didn't know that there were taxation forums (clearly never thought about it)! With regard to the cashback on initial investments, I believe from the statement posted in point 2, unless you think it is not current, that they are fully tax free: Can I ask if anyone was in PMF SPV 77 LOAN from the primary market only with no SM activity, if they can check what elements are listed on their PM statement of returns? I bought a number of shares on the PM & then sold 1, bought 1 & sold one - basically PM are treating my whole holding as liable to CGT, when really only 2 of my shares had any SM activity. I haven't got a clue if this is right! In any case, thank you very much pom for your advice - the SOR shows that I am many times under the various thresholds & can sleep soundly once again - THANK YOU! Not quite sure what you're seeing on SPV 77 but I can tell you my entries for it are definitely wrong (reported to PM and they're already aware - I suspect it's because it's a "new" deal type related to what they've had to report previously) as they don't show any gain at all right now. As it was a buy to sell (not a loan) then the earnings were very definitely capital gains. Unfortunately I DO have to worry about reporting for CGT, but I'm sure they'll get it fixed before I get all my other tax return paperwork anyway.
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jnm21
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Post by jnm21 on Mar 22, 2018 14:04:36 GMT
There was a loan to fund the BTS (similar to 76).
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