kaya
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Post by kaya on Dec 12, 2016 12:28:41 GMT
Interesting concept, great idea, I can see the attraction, but what are the positives and negatives going to be?
Looking through the site, here are my initial reflections:
some unreliable tenants, often relying on benefits, or sometimes no tenants at all some horrendous costs for 'cleaning', also for broken windows, broadband (eh?), council tax, garden 'clearance', etc high furniture costs, that would appear to be money down the drain when sold (doesn't seem logical to do this for short term rentals of 2-3 years. Could furniture be stored & shifted to the next place?) resale values achievable are unknown the agents seem to effectively have a blank cheque to pay out all sorts of 'costs' out of the rental income, and investors have no control over this 2% buying fees on the secondary market seem steep, and do not encourage investment Webpages a little slow in loading (for me anyway, must be the graphics)
Questions: why is there an opt-out for the 3% cashback? What would be the reasoning in choosing this? can stampduty be avoided by simply buying in multiples of £990 or less? why the steep buying costs, and why not shared with the seller? Why charge such fees at all? Would it not be better to absorb these 'costs' into general fees?
Great idea overall, I like it, but safeguards in place for good tenants - and agents!- are important, and also avoiding properties that are likely to incurr too many ongoing costs. I like the idea, and the hopes seem to be for about 10% annual return overall, split roughly 50/50 between rent and capital gain, yes?
I like it, but it makes the likes of SS, MT etc so very simple in comparison! What do you see as your own main positives and negatives in investing here? (apart from the fun of it!)
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Post by buttchopf23 on Dec 12, 2016 12:40:00 GMT
I like the idea of owning equity, as an addition to my loan portfolio on other platforms. The costs seem indeed high, but hey, I want to be a landlord and its fun
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Neil_P2PBlog
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Post by Neil_P2PBlog on Dec 12, 2016 12:53:31 GMT
kaya - furniture costs are mislabelled as furniture, they are mainly financing costs to the PMF loans. 2% buying fees are high compared to P2P sites (especially the PMF loans) but the same as closest competitor Property Partner (2% fee + 0.5% stamp duty on that, with no £1000 minimum). Very good questions, I have wondered on your first two!
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pom
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Post by pom on Dec 12, 2016 12:56:33 GMT
Interesting concept, great idea, I can see the attraction, but what are the positives and negatives going to be? Looking through the site, here are my initial reflections: some unreliable tenants, often relying on benefits, or sometimes no tenants at all some horrendous costs for 'cleaning', also for broken windows, broadband (eh?), council tax, garden 'clearance', etc high furniture costs, that would appear to be money down the drain when sold (doesn't seem logical to do this for short term rentals of 2-3 years. Could furniture be stored & shifted to the next place?) resale values achievable are unknown the agents seem to effectively have a blank cheque to pay out all sorts of 'costs' out of the rental income, and investors have no control over this 2% buying fees on the secondary market seem steep, and do not encourage investment Webpages a little slow in loading (for me anyway, must be the graphics)
Questions: why is there an opt-out for the 3% cashback? What would be the reasoning in choosing this? can stampduty be avoided by simply buying in multiples of £990 or less? why the steep buying costs, and why not shared with the seller? Why charge such fees at all? Would it not be better to absorb these 'costs' into general fees?
Great idea overall, I like it, but safeguards in place for good tenants - and agents!- are important, and also avoiding properties that are likely to incurr too many ongoing costs. I like the idea, and the hopes seem to be for about 10% annual return overall, split roughly 50/50 between rent and capital gain, yes?
I like it, but it makes the likes of SS, MT etc so very simple in comparison! What do you see as your own main positives and negatives in investing here? (apart from the fun of it!) They're acquisition costs not furniture costs - read the blurb near the bottom of the listings. Other costs - yeah some of them, particularly for HMOs have been nasty, but that's what happens sometimes in BTL. Buying fees - there was a discussion when the SM was launched. These are to cover transaction costs that don't exist with p2p SMs. Hasn't stopped people buying where the price is right for the property concerned (I've sold a few of the older £500 shares for between 3-14% gain) Cash-back opt out is probably there for the Sharia investors who can't receive interest. I like them because I was originally planning to invest in BTL anyway but didn't really fancy doing all the work myself or being stuck with eggs in too few baskets. The other main positive for me is that some of the returns are capital not income.
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Post by alexb26 on Dec 12, 2016 13:14:33 GMT
Kaya - Good questions you raise. Further - in my own experience, and why I have stopped investing in PM last couple months, rental performance is underwhelming and also it takes PM far longer to acquire properties than I'd expect from a professional outfit, cash buyer, purchasing from presumably motivated sellers - often my cash isn't doing anything for months on end.
Happy to slowly disinvest for the time being, as with more knowledge of how the 'exit strategy' plays out as PM 2-10 comes to an end will give more of an idea of what capital gains are reasonable. (Signs poor so far)!
Some further negatives; I worry that if these deals are really so good on paper, why does PM use crowdfunding at all? For example buying a property to flip inside 6 months for 19% return -- why give the action away to the market? PMF - Can they not acquire financing for less than 9%? Also indicative that very few of the 'shrewdies' on this forum are invested in PM. I rely heavily on this forum for due diligence and most people here leave no stone unturned to optimize their investments - I'd feel happier if more old heads were interested in PM.
Positives? Website is improving slowly I guess..
A
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Post by brokenbiscuits on Dec 12, 2016 16:04:31 GMT
Why opt out of the 3% interest?
the Quran states: O ye who believe! Devour not interest, doubled and multiplied; but fear Allâh; that ye may (really) prosper.
According to the Quran ‘Those who eat Ribâ (interest) will not stand (on the Day of Resurrection) except like the standing of a person touched by Shaitân (Satan) leading him to insanity.'
So it seems it is ok to take rental yields and profit from property sales, but not interest while your investment is in the holding phase if this is the particular god you put your faith in.
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Neil_P2PBlog
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Post by Neil_P2PBlog on Dec 12, 2016 16:30:40 GMT
I've noticed that PM make a lot of effort to keep Sharia compliant, also with the way they structured interest on the SPV52 conversion. Haven't seen anything similar on other platforms.
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pom
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Post by pom on Dec 12, 2016 18:40:45 GMT
I've noticed that PM make a lot of effort to keep Sharia compliant, also with the way they structured interest on the SPV52 conversion. Haven't seen anything similar on other platforms. As far as SPV52 is concerned they probably didn't have much choice given the original structure would have been. And if no-one else is doing it it's probably very worth their while!
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j
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Post by j on Dec 13, 2016 21:32:58 GMT
I've noticed that PM make a lot of effort to keep Sharia compliant, also with the way they structured interest on the SPV52 conversion. Haven't seen anything similar on other platforms. THC have also highlighted that their investments are sharia compliant for a number of years.
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kaya
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Post by kaya on Dec 14, 2016 14:14:26 GMT
''furniture costs are mislabelled as furniture, they are mainly financing costs to the PMF loans.'' thanks pom and Neil so, ''There is an additional ‘Acquisition cost’ (shown as 'Furniture cost') which represents a finance fee paid to PMF A Ltd and PMF B Ltd''
er, so why not call a spade a spade? This seems a crazy description if the aim is full transparency. Could anyone enlighten me as to who/what exactly PMF A and PMF B are, what is the difference between them - and between PM - and what these (hefty!) costs actually represent? PM are taking a 5% fee (of total raised) - so does that mean 5% of the 'furniture costs' aka finance fees too? - like a 'tax' on 'tax'?! I'm not pointing any suspicious fingers here, just trying to understand the mechanics of it all, and the various parties that are profiting out of these transactions. My initial impressions are that the whole scheme is a good money spinner for various parties, but which leaves margins tight for lenders, though obviously PM have to make their dollar too.
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Steerpike
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Post by Steerpike on Dec 14, 2016 14:32:40 GMT
''furniture costs are mislabelled as furniture, they are mainly financing costs to the PMF loans.'' thanks pom and Neil so, ''There is an additional ‘Acquisition cost’ (shown as 'Furniture cost') which represents a finance fee paid to PMF A Ltd and PMF B Ltd''
er, so why not call a spade a spade? This seems a crazy description if the aim is full transparency. Could anyone enlighten me as to who/what exactly PMF A and PMF B are, what is the difference between them - and between PM - and what these (hefty!) costs actually represent? PM are taking a 5% fee (of total raised) - so does that mean 5% of the 'furniture costs' aka finance fees too? - like a 'tax' on 'tax'?! I'm not pointing any suspicious fingers here, just trying to understand the mechanics of it all, and the various parties that are profiting out of these transactions. My initial impressions are that the whole scheme is a good money spinner for various parties, but which leaves margins tight for lenders, though obviously PM have to make their dollar too. It can be confusing, but I think that the rent shown in the accounts tends to be about 60% of that charged to the tenant because of PM fees, tax, and other charges and the deal loan amount includes the price paid for the property and acquisition costs of up to 30% including PM fees, PM financing fees, renovation, and legal. PMF A and B are SPVs set up to finance purchases and were funded through the site at a fixed return over 12 months. Also, the financials section seems to disappear after funding and sometimes there are deductions that are not taken out for the provision fund, for example SPV42 had a deduction for fencing work in October.
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Post by sayyestocress on Dec 14, 2016 15:55:36 GMT
...er, so why not call a spade a spade? This seems a crazy description if the aim is full transparency... I think they just haven't got round to calling it a spade yet! Here's some excerpts that can be found in the 'about this property' text for the properties: "There is an additional ‘Acquisition Cost’ (shown as 'Furniture Cost') which represents a finance fee paid to PMF A Ltd, and property management disbursements (auction fee, inventory, checkout, inspection, visit). This structure can provide access to new routes of property sourcing at large discounts... ...Please bear with us while we update the names of these fields on the website. To confirm, the projected returns are net of these fees."
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Steerpike
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Post by Steerpike on Dec 14, 2016 15:57:55 GMT
...er, so why not call a spade a spade? This seems a crazy description if the aim is full transparency... I think they just haven't got round to calling it a spade yet! Here's some excerpts that can be found in the 'about this property' text for the properties: "There is an additional ‘Acquisition Cost’ (shown as 'Furniture Cost') which represents a finance fee paid to PMF A Ltd, and property management disbursements (auction fee, inventory, checkout, inspection, visit). This structure can provide access to new routes of property sourcing at large discounts... ...Please bear with us while we update the names of these fields on the website. To confirm, the projected returns are net of these fees."I recall that we have been bearing for what seems like quite a while.
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kaya
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Post by kaya on Dec 17, 2016 12:28:12 GMT
When you arrive at a whole new platform and are completely unfamiliar with the set-up, or anything about it, confusions in terminology such as this are really not helpful. Re the other matter, I looked in vain for details of loan structures re PMF's in the 'knowledge center', but apparently this has no knowledge of such things. It was only later, when I got around to looking through every deal, and thus looking through the PMF loans in question, that the picture then became a bit clearer - though I am really still in the dark as to these 'acquisition costs', and how lenders lend into these funds that then seem to have such a marked impact on the profit margin on some deals (but not others). Any advantages of sourcing well-below market properties seems to get swallowed up into these 'costs', leaving the same tight margins. Anyway, I'm not pretending to know anything about it, but a comprehensive explanation in the 'knowledge center' or elsewhere would be helpful. Anyway, I'm on board to give it a try, though it would appear that the number of active investors is a very small proportion of the number of 'registered' members. Although it all looks interesting, I'm not at all sure that it will be all that financially rewarding! And sorry to dampen any illusions of being a 'landlord' or property 'owner' - a nice fanciful idea perhaps, but I would consider the SPV to be the 'landlord' and 'owner' - to which we buy shares into. One final thought for now - I saw some extortionate agent 'tenant finder fees' on some loans - I think one was for about £400! This is ridiculous, especially when the general 'quality' and average length of tenancies is considered. Perhaps something needs to be done to discourage agents from writing their own cheques. Who are these agents anyway? Might they be directly connected to PM in some way? Indeed, when any connected parties, directly or indirectly, are aware that the 'crowd' is paying, and that there is no direct control over costs, some 'inflationary' pressures might come into play! But that is the nature of the hassle-free hands-off approach I suppose.
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pom
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Post by pom on Dec 17, 2016 14:04:30 GMT
I'm guessing you haven't tried to contact them via chat/phone/email? Might be worth asking them to give you a call to answer some of your questions., as the information in the FAQ is always going to lag behind the changes. As for the PMFs etc... before they came along PM had to source properties from 3rd parties (I may be wrong but I think it's a condition of their VC backing that they couldn't tie any of their funds up in directly funding them themselves). These 3rd parties would go and buy properties cheaply at auction, tart them up a bit and sell them on to us still below market value but pocketing a tidy profit themselves. The PMF loans were set up to cut out these 3rd parties, passing on some of the savings to the crowd through bigger discounts to market value. The acquisition (furniture) costs are used to pay the interest on the PMF loans and to earn some extra cash for PM (who are after all in this business to make money!). So cheaper SPVs for the BTL investors, decent paying p2p loans for the PMF investors, and increased income (=greater stability, development etc) for PM - win,win,win...unless you were one of the 3rd parties Talk to them - they're very open about stuff - in fact if they weren't you wouldn't even be concerned about this - they could just as easily not have told us what they paid for the property and just quoted a property price already including the acquisition fees.
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