michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Oct 1, 2024 15:05:16 GMT
Me too and no more biased than most other broadcasters IMO. The establishment in this forum would tell me to read the BBC instead. Today I did that and came across this. www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cp39q1ppk41oYet another clear as day story to influence rather than inform. If you read the story ( Jenrick faces backlash over special forces killing claim), the "Backlash" turns out to be coming from Jenrick's rivals in the Tory leadership race. There is no backlash. Only likely the truth being outed by Jenrick and the beeb trying to deal with it. No backlash... except the backlash that you mention and dismiss. BTW, what he's alleging would be illegal, under both international rules of conflict and under UK law. He's also talking rubbish when he says that they'd be released by European judges under the ECHR. Which articles forbid prisoners being arrested and prosecuted? The ECHR merely says they are entitled to a fair trial. Is that a problem? You've somewhat skilfully changed topic here but yes I'd be quite wary of leaving the EHCR - need a very good reason. But nothing should be off the table.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Oct 1, 2024 15:23:24 GMT
No backlash... except the backlash that you mention and dismiss. BTW, what he's alleging would be illegal, under both international rules of conflict and under UK law. He's also talking rubbish when he says that they'd be released by European judges under the ECHR. Which articles forbid prisoners being arrested and prosecuted? The ECHR merely says they are entitled to a fair trial. Is that a problem? You've somewhat skilfully changed topic here but yes I'd be quite wary of leaving the EHCR - need a very good reason. But nothing should be off the table. No, I haven't changed the topic. He's raised these mythical military murders as a reason why we need to leave the ECHR.
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Post by bracknellboy on Oct 1, 2024 15:48:32 GMT
No backlash... except the backlash that you mention and dismiss. BTW, what he's alleging would be illegal, under both international rules of conflict and under UK law. He's also talking rubbish when he says that they'd be released by European judges under the ECHR. Which articles forbid prisoners being arrested and prosecuted? The ECHR merely says they are entitled to a fair trial. Is that a problem? You've somewhat skilfully changed topic here but yes I'd be quite wary of leaving the EHCR - need a very good reason. But nothing should be off the table. He's not changed topic: leaving the ECHR was precisely the topic !!! One of Jenrick's rationale's being that UK troops were murdering people (in unlawful circumstances) because of the EHCR !!
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Oct 1, 2024 15:57:34 GMT
You've somewhat skilfully changed topic here but yes I'd be quite wary of leaving the EHCR - need a very good reason. But nothing should be off the table. He's not changed topic: leaving the ECHR was precisely the topic !!! One of Jenrick's rationale's being that UK troops were murdering people (in unlawful circumstances) because of the EHCR !! The article was not about leaving the ECHR even if that was what was at the heart of the problem. I did not bring up the ECHR in isolation. I brought up the specific issue that Jenrick raises which the BBC would like us to doubt. That is not the same issue as: ECHR - leave or stay?
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Oct 1, 2024 16:11:46 GMT
He's not changed topic: leaving the ECHR was precisely the topic !!! One of Jenrick's rationale's being that UK troops were murdering people (in unlawful circumstances) because of the EHCR !! The article was not about leaving the ECHR even if that was what was at the heart of the problem. I did not bring up the ECHR in isolation. I brought up the specific issue that Jenrick raises which the BBC would like us to doubt. That is not the same issue as: ECHR - leave or stay? Did you actually read the article beyond the headline? Jenrick has raised this claim precisely to justify his position that the UK should leave the ECHR. "Speaking on stage at a conference event, Jenrick said human rights laws would make it “difficult” for British forces to “conduct a similar operation to the one that the United States did to kill or capture Osama bin Laden”."That's wrong,” Jenrick said.“I don't want our human rights apparatus to be standing in the way of taking the right operational decisions for our national security.”...In the video Jenrick made the claim, he called for the UK to leave the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR)."From the linked article: www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cn4y7vl0xl0t?post=asset%3A3a7e84d9-bcf2-4b9b-ae44-6815daef8568#post"Tory leadership contender Robert Jenrick - who we'll hear from shortly - has doubled down on his claim that British special forces are “killing rather than capturing terrorists”.He says this is because "our lawyers tell us that if they’re caught, the European court will set them free.”The comments were broadcast in a video promoting his bid to be the party's leader, sparking backlash from leadership rivals James Cleverly and Tom Tugendhat - both of whom have served in the army.Cleverly called on Jenrick to justify his claims, while Tugendhat said they showed a “misunderstanding of military operations and the law of armed conflict”.In an interview on BBC Radio 4’s Today programme this morning, Jenrick was asked what evidence he had to back up his statement.He said: "The point I was making was one that our former defence secretary Ben Wallace has made, which is that our human rights apparatus including the European Convention on Human Rights is encroaching on the battlefield."And it is impacting the decisions that our generals and military decision-makers are taking as to what kind of action is required in these difficult situations."
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Post by bracknellboy on Oct 1, 2024 16:58:02 GMT
Me too and no more biased than most other broadcasters IMO. The establishment in this forum would tell me to read the BBC instead. Today I did that and came across this. www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cp39q1ppk41oYet another clear as day story to influence rather than inform. If you read the story ( Jenrick faces backlash over special forces killing claim), the "Backlash" turns out to be coming from Jenrick's rivals in the Tory leadership race. There is no backlash. Only likely the truth being outed by Jenrick and the beeb trying to deal with it. ... He's also talking rubbish when he says that they'd be released by European judges under the ECHR. Which articles forbid prisoners being arrested and prosecuted? The ECHR merely says they are entitled to a fair trial. Is that a problem? I think though you have missed the actual point he was making (which is not to make it right). This is nothing to do with 'fair trial'. It was about it making it illegal to forceably render people from other countries (according to Bobby J: I can't vouch for whether he is right or not). This apparently is forcing our armed forces to illegally kill people so as to avoid illegally kidnapping them from another country. Allegedly.
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Oct 1, 2024 19:51:02 GMT
The article was not about leaving the ECHR even if that was what was at the heart of the problem. I did not bring up the ECHR in isolation. I brought up the specific issue that Jenrick raises which the BBC would like us to doubt. That is not the same issue as: ECHR - leave or stay? Did you actually read the article beyond the headline? Jenrick has raised this claim precisely to justify his position that the UK should leave the ECHR. "Speaking on stage at a conference event, Jenrick said human rights laws would make it “difficult” for British forces to “conduct a similar operation to the one that the United States did to kill or capture Osama bin Laden”."That's wrong,” Jenrick said.“I don't want our human rights apparatus to be standing in the way of taking the right operational decisions for our national security.”...In the video Jenrick made the claim, he called for the UK to leave the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR)."From the linked article: www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cn4y7vl0xl0t?post=asset%3A3a7e84d9-bcf2-4b9b-ae44-6815daef8568#post"Tory leadership contender Robert Jenrick - who we'll hear from shortly - has doubled down on his claim that British special forces are “killing rather than capturing terrorists”.He says this is because "our lawyers tell us that if they’re caught, the European court will set them free.”The comments were broadcast in a video promoting his bid to be the party's leader, sparking backlash from leadership rivals James Cleverly and Tom Tugendhat - both of whom have served in the army.Cleverly called on Jenrick to justify his claims, while Tugendhat said they showed a “misunderstanding of military operations and the law of armed conflict”.In an interview on BBC Radio 4’s Today programme this morning, Jenrick was asked what evidence he had to back up his statement.He said: "The point I was making was one that our former defence secretary Ben Wallace has made, which is that our human rights apparatus including the European Convention on Human Rights is encroaching on the battlefield."And it is impacting the decisions that our generals and military decision-makers are taking as to what kind of action is required in these difficult situations."Good to see you've mastered copy and paste. One day you'll answer the bleeding question!
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benaj
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Post by benaj on Oct 2, 2024 10:00:58 GMT
I try to watch Aljazeera which, although hugely biased, at least expands my view of the world, poor though that might be. But it has just vanished from Freeview to be replaced by a web-page which doesn't load on my smart telly. Progress, Jim, but not as we know it... MW
I watch a few, including sky news. I am grateful for sky for interviewing a prof from the “other side” youtu.be/7-2EiPHpam4I really don’t want the world being dragged into this mess, surely those ordinary people living in the regions don’t sleep well with the sirens happened in the daily basis.
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Oct 2, 2024 11:12:40 GMT
... He's also talking rubbish when he says that they'd be released by European judges under the ECHR. Which articles forbid prisoners being arrested and prosecuted? The ECHR merely says they are entitled to a fair trial. Is that a problem? I think though you have missed the actual point he was making (which is not to make it right). This is nothing to do with 'fair trial'. It was about it making it illegal to forceably render people from other countries (according to Bobby J: I can't vouch for whether he is right or not). This apparently is forcing our armed forces to illegally kill people so as to avoid illegally kidnapping them from another country. Allegedly. this is the issue "apparently" it is possible that should we grab a terrorist leader or even say Lukashenko to put them on trial for terrorist acts / kidnapping then the ECHR could order us to release them as kidnapping them and bringing them to the UK to stand trial is illegal. whether the court would ever do that is a moot point, also in the latter case given that the Belarusian authorities forced a plane to land so they could arrest an opposition leader, I would view it as tit for tat
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Oct 2, 2024 12:06:14 GMT
I think though you have missed the actual point he was making (which is not to make it right). This is nothing to do with 'fair trial'. It was about it making it illegal to forceably render people from other countries (according to Bobby J: I can't vouch for whether he is right or not). This apparently is forcing our armed forces to illegally kill people so as to avoid illegally kidnapping them from another country. Allegedly. this is the issue "apparently" it is possible that should we grab a terrorist leader or even say Lukashenko to put them on trial for terrorist acts / kidnapping then the ECHR could order us to release them as kidnapping them and bringing them to the UK to stand trial is illegal. whether the court would ever do that is a moot point, also in the latter case given that the Belarusian authorities forced a plane to land so they could arrest an opposition leader, I would view it as tit for tat Let's just look at that a little deeper, shall we? Are you suggesting that our military are "grabbing" those terrorist leaders - or, even, the head of government of a sovereign state - with zero co-operation from the authorities in the country that they're in? In that hypothetical situation, the SAS would sneak into Belarus, grab the President, and sneak him out? And, because that would be just a tad illegal under all sorts of international law, the alternative would be for the SAS to sneak in, assassinate him, then sneak out? Yeh, that'd be SO much more legal... Because if there's an international arrest warrant for these people, and they're arrested by the authorities in whatever other country they visit, then extradited before a fair trial, there's really nothing in the ECHR to cause a problem... Or, indeed, any other international law. The Belarus/Ryanair incident is a little greyer than first appears - Belarussian authorities received a "bomb threat" email. I don't believe the sender/s have been identified officially, and timing of the response would obviously have been critical (he says, charitably)... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryanair_Flight_4978I do hope you aren't suggesting that the RAF would be used for such a thing - even were the target of the arrest to be a British National (the arrested blogger was a Belarussian national) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_ProtasevichInternational Conventions on air travel are believed to have been broken - surely not even the hardest-line of xenophobic isolationists would seriously suggest the UK should leave those...? x.com/icao/status/1396515815248257027
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Oct 7, 2024 12:01:05 GMT
I see that the US Supreme Court (that most democratic of institutions) is back from their summer holidays. Among the thorny issues that have reached them are:
- should guns sold in kit form and assembled at home be subject to the same regulations as conventional fire arms
- should gender altering drugs be given to minors, and
- should adult web sites be required to verify someones age before allowing them to view online pornography
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Oct 7, 2024 12:25:18 GMT
I see that the US Supreme Court (that most democratic of institutions) is back from their summer holidays. Among the thorny issues that have reached them are:
- should guns sold in kit form and assembled at home be subject to the same regulations as conventional fire arms
- should gender altering drugs be given to minors, and
- should adult web sites be required to verify someones age before allowing them to view online pornography
Why is that anymore interesting to me than for example the pronouncements made by the São Tomé and Príncipe Supreme Court of Justice ? Oh yes, silly me. We are the US's lapdog so our government media service likes to talk about their internal affairs.
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Post by bernythedolt on Oct 7, 2024 19:03:48 GMT
The two thugs who attacked police at Manchester Airport on July23rd - breaking a WPC's nose in the process - still haven't been prosecuted by the CPS. The Reform party has had enough, threatening a private prosecution if the CPS don't pull their finger out. Why the delay? The video evidence seems pretty damning. Meanwhile, the two suspended officers remain suspended 11 weeks later, still under investigation, their future looking bleak. It shouldn't be this way. In my day, attacking the police was about as serious a crime as you could imagine. If we don't respect and protect our almost universally decent police force, we are lost and anarchy awaits. www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy94yz3p7xpo |
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keitha
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Post by keitha on Oct 7, 2024 22:12:24 GMT
this is the issue "apparently" it is possible that should we grab a terrorist leader or even say Lukashenko to put them on trial for terrorist acts / kidnapping then the ECHR could order us to release them as kidnapping them and bringing them to the UK to stand trial is illegal. whether the court would ever do that is a moot point, also in the latter case given that the Belarusian authorities forced a plane to land so they could arrest an opposition leader, I would view it as tit for tat Let's just look at that a little deeper, shall we? Are you suggesting that our military are "grabbing" those terrorist leaders - or, even, the head of government of a sovereign state - with zero co-operation from the authorities in the country that they're in? In that hypothetical situation, the SAS would sneak into Belarus, grab the President, and sneak him out? And, because that would be just a tad illegal under all sorts of international law, the alternative would be for the SAS to sneak in, assassinate him, then sneak out? Yeh, that'd be SO much more legal... Because if there's an international arrest warrant for these people, and they're arrested by the authorities in whatever other country they visit, then extradited before a fair trial, there's really nothing in the ECHR to cause a problem... Or, indeed, any other international law.
The Belarus/Ryanair incident is a little greyer than first appears - Belarussian authorities received a "bomb threat" email. I don't believe the sender/s have been identified officially, and timing of the response would obviously have been critical (he says, charitably)...en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryanair_Flight_4978I do hope you aren't suggesting that the RAF would be used for such a thing - even were the target of the arrest to be a British National (the arrested blogger was a Belarussian national) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_ProtasevichInternational Conventions on air travel are believed to have been broken - surely not even the hardest-line of xenophobic isolationists would seriously suggest the UK should leave those...? x.com/icao/status/1396515815248257027You are a sight more charitable than I am, This was a clear breach of all sorts of laws and No I do not and did not suggest the UK should indulge in such illegal activity.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Oct 8, 2024 7:20:01 GMT
The two thugs who attacked police at Manchester Airport on July23rd - breaking a WPC's nose in the process Yeh, I seem to recall there was a little bit more to that whole sorry saga than just that... Greater Manchester Police sent the full evidential file to the CPS in mid August. Not even two months ago. The whole thing is going to be interlinked. They almost certainly can't simply prosecute one side without risking any prosecution against the other. Apart from the obvious reason for Reform to focus on just one side of it, I rather suspect the key detail in that press release is that they'll be crowdfunding it. Grifters gonna grift. Oh, and if there really is the alleged CPS conspiracy? Don't forget that the CPS can take over private prosecutions and stop them in their tracks...
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