michaelc
Member of DD Central
Posts: 5,426
Likes: 2,893
|
Post by michaelc on Jun 17, 2024 20:44:56 GMT
My wife but must admit that may not be the best thing to do. As for the story about men being picked up from the streets (hardly news since its been going on for weeks) I'm going to hear virtually first hand soon as BIL is going back after almost 2 years in the UK (with us). He has a genuine medical exception but still a worry for t'other half of the family. I understand that, and you and your family have my sympathies. But no thoughts on the commentary in the article about the Ukrainian constitution, or the validity and legitimacy of the polls mentioned? Thanks. I think we as a family have no particular view on the question about the legitimacy of Zelensky nor aware of any back in Ukraine. I've said before I personally don't like him much except as a war leader and I do have huge respect for the fact he didn't leave as soon as the invasion started. The question here though is about his legitimacy. He was elected in a broadly free and fair election and now he's overstayed his term but that happened due to martial law which sadly is probably necessary. So in other words, yes for now its probably right he carries on. Also consider as I'm sure you have, how could they have an election right now anyway? A good chunk of the populatiuon is abroad or otherwise displaced.
|
|
ilmoro
Member of DD Central
'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
Posts: 11,214
Likes: 11,405
|
Post by ilmoro on Jun 17, 2024 21:01:51 GMT
Be as much point reading that as reading an RT article on how long Putin's reign should continue. If it was opinion yes but its not, its just reporting. The figure has actually dropped from 80% in Nov in the last poll by KISS The Ukrainian Parliament has agreed the postponement with all parties signing the document. www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2023/11/30/7431116/The original is linked to but its in Ukrainian
|
|
|
Post by captainconfident on Jun 18, 2024 9:36:16 GMT
I wonder if the if the person who suggested that Poison Putin was a model ruler but that Zhelensky was not because his peacetime term limit had ended would have spent the Second World War complaining about the abandonment of the 1940 election and 'technically illegitimate' Churchill junta?
|
|
|
Post by bracknellboy on Jun 18, 2024 10:37:15 GMT
I wonder if the if the person who suggested that Poison Putin was a model ruler but that Zhelensky was not because his peacetime term limit had ended would have spent the Second World War complaining about the abandonment of the 1940 election and 'technically illegitimate' Churchill junta? likewise the 1916 election that was due. Having crowds Q up while parts of your country are having the c**p bombed out of them is probably not a good thing. And what about representation for the illegally occupied territories ? One thing of note of course is that Ukr's democratically elected parliament is still sitting, and has been throughout the war. And unlike Putler who has a Duma which is largely populated by lickspittles, plus some who are way too fearful of their own life to not tow the line, Zelensky has to actually deal and negotiate with his Parliament. Much the same as the UK during WW1 and WW2 then. So while less than ideal, there is still a reasonable level of democratic accountability. That accountability hopefully means that if the tide of majority opinion in Ukr is turning against continuation of its struggle, there will be an outlet for that.
|
|
k6
Posts: 249
Likes: 148
|
Post by k6 on Jun 18, 2024 10:54:26 GMT
I understand that, and you and your family have my sympathies. But no thoughts on the commentary in the article about the Ukrainian constitution, or the validity and legitimacy of the polls mentioned? Thanks. I think we as a family have no particular view on the question about the legitimacy of Zelensky nor aware of any back in Ukraine. I've said before I personally don't like him much except as a war leader and I do have huge respect for the fact he didn't leave as soon as the invasion started. The question here though is about his legitimacy. He was elected in a broadly free and fair election and now he's overstayed his term but that happened due to martial law which sadly is probably necessary. but that happened due to martial law which sadly is probably necessary. Also consider as I'm sure you have, how could they have an election right now anyway? A good chunk of the populatiuon is abroad or otherwise displaced. Its bit confusing reading your statement. You don't like him how ever you have a huge respect for his Not Running Away. "The question here though is about his legitimacy. He was elected in a broadly free and fair election" . . . ? "he's overstayed his term" and then you give your own answer . . . "but that happened due to martial law which sadly is probably necessary". "but that happened due to martial law which sadly is probably necessary" - off course is necessary. Why would anyone try to push for selecting new leader when current one does great job. There are only one type of ppl that would like to get him out now and for obvious reasons.
|
|
angrysaveruk
Member of DD Central
Back and to the left..
Posts: 1,214
Likes: 720
|
Post by angrysaveruk on Jun 18, 2024 19:39:42 GMT
What ever you think of Putin, he is extremely popular in Russia and is fairly popular internationally. He has a lot more popular support than the vast majority of leaders in the West. Obviously by our standards having a leader who is corrupt and extremely ruthless is a negative, but what most "mono-polar people" do not take into account is how people from other cultures see things differently from themselves. Most Russians seem perfectly happy that Putin is extremely rich by skimming off the vast wealth of Russia and do not seem to be at all worried he might have tolchoked a few people.
|
|
michaelc
Member of DD Central
Posts: 5,426
Likes: 2,893
|
Post by michaelc on Jun 18, 2024 19:59:51 GMT
What ever you think of Putin, he is extremely popular in Russia and is fairly popular internationally. He has a lot more popular support than the vast majority of leaders in the West. Obviously by our standards having a leader who is corrupt and extremely ruthless is a negative, but what most "mono-polar people" do not take into account is how people from other cultures see things differently from themselves. Most Russians seem perfectly happy that Putin is extremely rich by skimming off the vast wealth of Russia and do not seem to be at all worried he might have tolchoked a few people. Yes I agree with that and he is not alone of course - many of the oligarchs including several that reside in the UK including Abramovich did exactly that. I think what a lot of people in Russia remember was the chaos following the west's successful break up of the soviet union. It really was chaos - gangsters everwhere, guns everywhere - even my late father in law in Kyiv (then soviet union) felt it necessary to obtain a gun to protect his family. Putin brought stability and pretty quickly. Real shame he and the west both went a bit crazy in the years that followed. Suspect there is deep-state style mistrust of the other side that goes back to the days before the Russian revolution. In particular, even during the days Putin was welcomed in the west I suspect there were many within Russia who were totally against it and similarly in the states.
|
|
registerme
Member of DD Central
Posts: 6,524
Likes: 6,316
|
Post by registerme on Jun 18, 2024 20:01:50 GMT
I've just started reading Second-hand Time. It's 500 odd pages long, and written by Svetlana Alexievich, who won the Nobel Prize for Literature in 2015. It's a huge collection of vignettes from people who experienced the collapse of the USSR and the subsequent failure to build executive, legislative, legal, journalistic, and regulatory bodies to support the development of a lasting democratic system (and the consequences thereof). It's... remarkable. I recommend it if you have the time, and are interested in Russia's recent history.
|
|
angrysaveruk
Member of DD Central
Back and to the left..
Posts: 1,214
Likes: 720
|
Post by angrysaveruk on Jun 19, 2024 7:34:02 GMT
What ever you think of Putin, he is extremely popular in Russia and is fairly popular internationally. He has a lot more popular support than the vast majority of leaders in the West. Obviously by our standards having a leader who is corrupt and extremely ruthless is a negative, but what most "mono-polar people" do not take into account is how people from other cultures see things differently from themselves. Most Russians seem perfectly happy that Putin is extremely rich by skimming off the vast wealth of Russia and do not seem to be at all worried he might have tolchoked a few people. Yes I agree with that and he is not alone of course - many of the oligarchs including several that reside in the UK including Abramovich did exactly that. I think what a lot of people in Russia remember was the chaos following the west's successful break up of the soviet union. It really was chaos - gangsters everwhere, guns everywhere - even my late father in law in Kyiv (then soviet union) felt it necessary to obtain a gun to protect his family. Putin brought stability and pretty quickly.Real shame he and the west both went a bit crazy in the years that followed. Suspect there is deep-state style mistrust of the other side that goes back to the days before the Russian revolution. In particular, even during the days Putin was welcomed in the west I suspect there were many within Russia who were totally against it and similarly in the states. I think also because Russia historically has been involved in wars that have involved terrible devastation they also like the idea of having a strong leader who can defeat potential invaders. Russia is of course a vast country with immense resources and Russians know people (like the imperialist US) would like to get their hands on their wealth. The US has done some pretty stupid things in its endless pursuit of money and power over the years, but the attempt to use Ukraine as a proxy to do a "Yugoslavia" on Russia is probably the most dangerous by far - it will almost certainly lead to the destruction of Ukraine and possibly the World.
|
|
|
Post by captainconfident on Jun 19, 2024 9:40:43 GMT
Yes I agree with that and he is not alone of course - many of the oligarchs including several that reside in the UK including Abramovich did exactly that. I think what a lot of people in Russia remember was the chaos following the west's successful break up of the soviet union. It really was chaos - gangsters everwhere, guns everywhere - even my late father in law in Kyiv (then soviet union) felt it necessary to obtain a gun to protect his family. Putin brought stability and pretty quickly.Real shame he and the west both went a bit crazy in the years that followed. Suspect there is deep-state style mistrust of the other side that goes back to the days before the Russian revolution. In particular, even during the days Putin was welcomed in the west I suspect there were many within Russia who were totally against it and similarly in the states. I think also because Russia historically has been involved in wars that have involved terrible devastation they also like the idea of having a strong leader who can defeat potential invaders. Russia is of course a vast country with immense resources and Russians know people (like the imperialist US) would like to get their hands on their wealth. The US has done some pretty stupid things in its endless pursuit of money and power over the years, but the attempt to use Ukraine as a proxy to do a "Yugoslavia" on Russia is probably the most dangerous by far - it will almost certainly lead to the destruction of Ukraine and possibly the World. Aaaawwww it was all going so so well until a scuffed shot in the second half led to a defeat of reality. Post match summary: The first half was on good form with some lively analysis. What ever you think of Putin, he is extremely popular in Russia and is fairly popular internationally. He has a lot more popular support than the vast majority of leaders in the West. Obviously by our standards having a leader who is corrupt and extremely ruthless is a negative, but what most "mono-polar people" do not take into account is how people from other cultures see things differently from themselves. Most Russians seem perfectly happy that Putin is extremely rich by skimming off the vast wealth of Russia and do not seem to be at all worried he might have tolchoked a few people.The second half got off to a poor start with a truism, I think also because Russia historically has been involved in wars that have involved terrible devastation they also like the idea of having a strong leader who can defeat potential invaders.
Hope for a recovery of form was dampened by a poor shot wide of the post Russia is of course a vast country with immense resources and Russians know people (like the imperialist US) would like to get their hands on their wealth. The US has done some pretty stupid things in its endless pursuit of money and power over the years, but the attempt to use Ukraine as a proxy to do a "Yugoslavia" on Russia is probably the most dangerous by far
And immediately after by a straight red card for a wild overstatement which left the disappointed fans with their heads in their hands. it will almost certainly lead to the destruction of Ukraine and possibly the World.
|
|
|
Post by overthehill on Jun 19, 2024 11:02:44 GMT
I think also because Russia historically has been involved in wars that have involved terrible devastation they also like the idea of having a strong leader who can defeat potential invaders. Russia is of course a vast country with immense resources and Russians know people (like the imperialist US) would like to get their hands on their wealth. The US has done some pretty stupid things in its endless pursuit of money and power over the years, but the attempt to use Ukraine as a proxy to do a "Yugoslavia" on Russia is probably the most dangerous by far - it will almost certainly lead to the destruction of Ukraine and possibly the World. Aaaawwww it was all going so so well until a scuffed shot in the second half led to a defeat of reality. Post match summary: The first half was on good form with some lively analysis. What ever you think of Putin, he is extremely popular in Russia and is fairly popular internationally. He has a lot more popular support than the vast majority of leaders in the West. Obviously by our standards having a leader who is corrupt and extremely ruthless is a negative, but what most "mono-polar people" do not take into account is how people from other cultures see things differently from themselves. Most Russians seem perfectly happy that Putin is extremely rich by skimming off the vast wealth of Russia and do not seem to be at all worried he might have tolchoked a few people.The second half got off to a poor start with a truism, I think also because Russia historically has been involved in wars that have involved terrible devastation they also like the idea of having a strong leader who can defeat potential invaders.
Hope for a recovery of form was dampened by a poor shot wide of the post Russia is of course a vast country with immense resources and Russians know people (like the imperialist US) would like to get their hands on their wealth. The US has done some pretty stupid things in its endless pursuit of money and power over the years, but the attempt to use Ukraine as a proxy to do a "Yugoslavia" on Russia is probably the most dangerous by far
And immediately after by a straight red card for a wild overstatement which left the disappointed fans with their heads in their hands. it will almost certainly lead to the destruction of Ukraine and possibly the World.
Think you should stick to the half empty frothy pints and lay off the full flat pints.
|
|
k6
Posts: 249
Likes: 148
|
Post by k6 on Jun 19, 2024 11:30:56 GMT
Yes I agree with that and he is not alone of course - many of the oligarchs including several that reside in the UK including Abramovich did exactly that. I think what a lot of people in Russia remember was the chaos following the west's successful break up of the soviet union. It really was chaos - gangsters everwhere, guns everywhere - even my late father in law in Kyiv (then soviet union) felt it necessary to obtain a gun to protect his family. Putin brought stability and pretty quickly.Real shame he and the west both went a bit crazy in the years that followed. Suspect there is deep-state style mistrust of the other side that goes back to the days before the Russian revolution. In particular, even during the days Putin was welcomed in the west I suspect there were many within Russia who were totally against it and similarly in the states. I think also because Russia historically has been involved in wars that have involved terrible devastation they also like the idea of having a strong leader who can defeat potential invaders. Russia is of course a vast country with immense resources and Russians know people (like the imperialist US) would like to get their hands on their wealth. The US has done some pretty stupid things in its endless pursuit of money and power over the years, but the attempt to use Ukraine as a proxy to do a "Yugoslavia" on Russia is probably the most dangerous by far - it will almost certainly lead to the destruction of Ukraine and possibly the World. russia is as strong as the other side is weak , so it destroys things around , make it miserable and unbearable / unleavable and only then feels accomplished. russia is a bully and we know how to stand up against bullies
|
|
michaelc
Member of DD Central
Posts: 5,426
Likes: 2,893
|
Post by michaelc on Jun 19, 2024 15:05:20 GMT
I think also because Russia historically has been involved in wars that have involved terrible devastation they also like the idea of having a strong leader who can defeat potential invaders. Russia is of course a vast country with immense resources and Russians know people (like the imperialist US) would like to get their hands on their wealth. The US has done some pretty stupid things in its endless pursuit of money and power over the years, but the attempt to use Ukraine as a proxy to do a "Yugoslavia" on Russia is probably the most dangerous by far - it will almost certainly lead to the destruction of Ukraine and possibly the World. russia is as strong as the other side is weak , so it destroys things around , make it miserable and unbearable / unleavable and only then feels accomplished. russia is a bully and we know how to stand up against bullies You remind me of those folk with far left views. They spend a lot of time preaching to others about how we should all live our lives but often don't practice what they preach at home. You have attempted to bully a victim of war right here on this forum. I'm sure you would not behave that way if you met the people you communicate with in person. Perhaps I got it all wrong though. Why don't you volunteer for Ukraine and go and fight there? I'd be mightily proud as I'm sure others would here....
|
|
adrianc
Member of DD Central
Posts: 9,605
Likes: 5,020
|
Post by adrianc on Jun 19, 2024 15:23:06 GMT
What ever you think of Putin, he is extremely popular in Russia and is fairly popular internationally. He has a lot more popular support than the vast majority of leaders in the West. Obviously by our standards having a leader who is corrupt and extremely ruthless is a negative, but what most "mono-polar people" do not take into account is how people from other cultures see things differently from themselves. Most Russians seem perfectly happy that Putin is extremely rich by skimming off the vast wealth of Russia and do not seem to be at all worried he might have tolchoked a few people. I repeat: It's very easy to be popular when the populace are allowed nothing but fawning praise of you in the media you control.
|
|
|
Post by overthehill on Jun 19, 2024 15:45:41 GMT
Try putting yourself in either Ukraine or russia rather than your armchair before making brainless claims and statements.
Putin is not popular, citizens are scared of him and shared to say anything against him or the government or the war. Everybody knows what happens, the FSB or worse arrive, people get arrested, jailed, tortured or disappear. That's why he is still in power. Go on use your imagination and initiative if you can find it, put yourself in their position.
I'd say most outside moscow and st petersburg hate him with vengeance, their living conditions are dreadful, don't even have toilets as we saw.
|
|