hazellend
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Post by hazellend on Oct 20, 2018 14:13:56 GMT
Then they would have to unwind the whole portfolio and give investors back their money. How much are the assets worth and what's their debt situation? I doubt they would bother converting to a REIT if they were a basket case? The problem with these types of investments is the cost: they way they were structured before, it was too expensive to run. Maybe it will still be too expensive to run even now. It would be good to look at their balance sheets at some point. If they are not over-leveraged, I don't think they are a basket case. They are not going to unwind the whole portfolio, they already stated they can't sell the properties because of lack of demand.
They converted to a REIT to try and get out of jail IMO.
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Post by valueinvestor123 on Oct 20, 2018 17:22:26 GMT
Since it is going to be an investment trust, when too many people will want to sell, the price will go down (below net asset values) and the discount will go lower too, and there will be a lot of 'smart' investors buying in at that point. I would simply wait or give it a couple of years and sell then (if you want out). property is not an especially liquid investment but unless all of their properties are complete duds, I don't see why they can't sell over time. These I residential properties as I understand it. The REITs that hold commercial properties are much more difficult to sell off and the value is questionable.
The reason why REITs go bus is usually overgearing/high costs.
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rs
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Post by rs on Oct 31, 2018 13:05:44 GMT
How can we find out how many shares the Property Moose owners have in this new UK Diversified Property Plc? The new update looks surprisingly very positive. Not one single negative aspect.
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hazellend
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Post by hazellend on Oct 31, 2018 14:02:31 GMT
How can we find out how many shares the Property Moose owners have in this new UK Diversified Property Plc? The new update looks surprisingly very positive. Not one single negative aspect. Wait till you see the haircut on the 4 week valuations. I suspect it will be ugly, just need to wait and see
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benaj
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Post by benaj on Oct 31, 2018 15:04:05 GMT
How can we find out how many shares the Property Moose owners have in this new UK Diversified Property Plc? The new update looks surprisingly very positive. Not one single negative aspect. I prefer FACTSHEETS, not UPDATE and there is no factsheet available at the moment. I suppose I will see more Legal Documents, Financial statements, etc.
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ilmoro
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'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
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Post by ilmoro on Oct 31, 2018 15:34:28 GMT
How can we find out how many shares the Property Moose owners have in this new UK Diversified Property Plc? The new update looks surprisingly very positive. Not one single negative aspect. Currently none, you just have the individual shares in the properties transferred from PM as before. See the temporary investment holdings doc on your dashboard. Once the portfolio has been valued then these shares in individual properties will be translated into shares in the Plc based on the total valuation of the portfolio & your % of it.
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Post by sayyestocress on Oct 31, 2018 17:28:36 GMT
Call me a cynical bar steward but my interpretation would be:
- we won't get a dividend for ages yet (we haven't had one for ages)
- the 4 week valuations are still some way off so the earliest possible exit won't be for ages
- if we don't exit on the 4 week valuations it will be ages after that until we can exit
- they've managed to re-tenant some of the properties that they turfed the existing tenants out to sell but couldn't
- they've all but admitted the PM strategy for procuring properties was poor in the past
- we don't get a real feel for any performance because we have no visibility on what's happening with the individual properties, we have to trust them at their word which is likely to be heavily spun towards the positive.
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littleoldlady
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Post by littleoldlady on Oct 31, 2018 19:41:47 GMT
What exactly is the 4 week valuation? 4 weeks to completion? Valuation would need to be <50% of a reasonable valuation. 4 weeks to exchange? Maybe 50-60%. 4 weeks to an agreed offer? maybe 70%. What is the start time for the 4 weeks? The valuation date? The date first advertised? Any date that PM like to pluck out of the air? Will the valuation show a figure given a reasonable marketing period, say 3-6 months, as well as the 4-week one so we can get an idea of the short term discount? So many questions.
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Post by penguinz on Oct 31, 2018 22:44:44 GMT
What exactly is the 4 week valuation? 4 weeks to completion? Valuation would need to be <50% of a reasonable valuation. 4 weeks to exchange? Maybe 50-60%. 4 weeks to an agreed offer? maybe 70%. What is the start time for the 4 weeks? The valuation date? The date first advertised? Any date that PM like to pluck out of the air? Will the valuation show a figure given a reasonable marketing period, say 3-6 months, as well as the 4-week one so we can get an idea of the short term discount? So may questions. My understanding is that the 4-week valuation is the price at which a sale within a 4-week period can be guaranteed. This is lower than the market price as the price is discounted due to the need to sell within a 4-week period. I have reviewed the documents and have not found them conclusive, I would need to see additional data, for instance average rental yield across the portfolio when managed by Property Moose and current portfolio rental yield to be able to make an informed judgement on how the PLC is doing, I understand the PLC is dedicating all its efforts to valuing and refurbishing the portfolio and hopefully a complete set of data will be available shortly. It does appear that PM’s strategy of buying and holding lower-value properties in the North of England has been thrown overboard. This is water under the bridge, but one might wonder whether PM would have chosen a different strategy with the benefit of hindsight. As no dividend has been paid out since the beginning of the year and none will be paid out till end of Q1 2019, this means roughly a year without distributions. I initially expected the investment to pay distributions on a monthly basis so a hiatus of a year is a disappointment.
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benaj
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Post by benaj on Nov 1, 2018 7:39:21 GMT
Well, I have received dividend from a Private Equity in October from, SPV56, which has not been trasnferred to UKDPP. That's about it.
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Nov 1, 2018 9:41:33 GMT
What exactly is the 4 week valuation? 4 weeks to completion? Valuation would need to be <50% of a reasonable valuation. 4 weeks to exchange? Maybe 50-60%. 4 weeks to an agreed offer? maybe 70%. What is the start time for the 4 weeks? The valuation date? The date first advertised? Any date that PM like to pluck out of the air? Will the valuation show a figure given a reasonable marketing period, say 3-6 months, as well as the 4-week one so we can get an idea of the short term discount? So may questions. My understanding is that the 4-week valuation is the price at which a sale within a 4-week period can be guaranteed. Lovely, an' all, but now define "sale"... Accepted offer? Exchange? Completion? ...and when you're looking at four weeks, just 20 working days, when that period starts is fairly relevant. As littleoldlady said, it ain't that easy.
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kaya
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Post by kaya on Nov 1, 2018 9:51:51 GMT
It all really depends on what the new company can afford, to buy out those exiting. The valuations can be 'adjusted' accordingly. Expect around 65% if wanting to exit, I reckon.
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Post by propertycalf on Nov 1, 2018 11:15:25 GMT
I totally accept that any investment is a calculated risk.. We all knew the details of what we INITIALLY invested in..
This has now completely transformed into something completely alien to what I signed up for.
I wonder how the law would view it?
If the price estimates of any withdrawal valuations are substantially low and deemed unfair, I suggest we all seek a combined legal action and any investigation would surely mean authorities going through the books with a fine tooth comb.
Just a little point for pm to heed, might be worth just giving us back what we're owed than having to endure any actions that might be detrimental to anyone's rep
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Post by propertycalf on Nov 1, 2018 12:02:39 GMT
Just a little point for pm to heed, might be worth just giving us back what we're owed than having to endure any actions that might be detrimental to anyone's rep Property Moose's reputation is already toast. Still might be getting new interest in their loan notes etc.. Details of us losing out big style reaching a broader audience may undermine future investments.. Just my humble thoughts
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Post by baronhardup on Nov 12, 2018 7:27:31 GMT
I totally accept that any investment is a calculated risk.. We all knew the details of what we INITIALLY invested in.. This has now completely transformed into something completely alien to what I signed up for. I wonder how the law would view it? If the price estimates of any withdrawal valuations are substantially low and deemed unfair, I suggest we all seek a combined legal action and any investigation would surely mean authorities going through the books with a fine tooth comb. Just a little point for pm to heed, might be worth just giving us back what we're owed than having to endure any actions that might be detrimental to anyone's rep I agree completely. Trouble is, raising the funds to bring an action against PM. Might be throwing good money after bad.
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