jjc
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Post by jjc on Aug 8, 2017 11:27:42 GMT
I don't have the confidence that the language school is a viable concept, and the exit from this loan is convincing someone to lend development funds to develop the language schoolThat's exactly how I feel. Ed, thanks for coming back to us but without Appendix 2, insights into the language school business plan & how the valuation was derived (variously referred to in 1.70, 1.78 & 1.85) sorry to say but I consider there to be no proposition that can be assessed here. Why is the VR being made available to us without this crucial information? MoneyThing
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GeorgeT
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Post by GeorgeT on Aug 8, 2017 11:46:00 GMT
Thanks to Ed for providing a response.
I'm surprised this loan is attracting so much investment - not from P2P forum members I guess.
However I remain unconvinced and I'm giving this one a big swerve.
I retain doubts about the integrity of certain individuals and we have seen from other platforms which have dealt with people with dubious links and track records that leopards don't tend to change their spots.
Mining, wind farm, luxury cars, education, investment products .. fingers in a lot of pies here and bank details for payments aplenty. And plenty of unhappy people. I don't buy the argument that the college website was for 'internal purposes'. Who makes a website live for internal purposes - that's a contradiction. The internet is a public place. It was a completed online, pro looking website available to all and indexed by Google and all search engines and therefore was being advertised, all working for people to sign up with bank details of where the overseas students should send the money. Test it online if you like but then disable it, it takes a few seconds. Very fishy.
I shall be watching this one carefully - from a safe distance.
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mikeh
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Post by mikeh on Aug 8, 2017 11:49:40 GMT
Thanks to Ed for providing a response. I'm surprised this loan is attracting so much investment - not from P2P forum members I guess. However I remain unconvinced and I'm giving this one a big swerve. I retain doubts about the integrity of certain individuals and we have seen from other platforms which have dealt with people with dubious links and track records that leopards don't tend to change their spots. Mining, wind farm, luxury cars, education, investment products .. fingers in a lot of pies here and bank details for payments aplenty. And plenty of unhappy people. I don't buy the argument that the college website was for 'internal purposes'. Who makes a website live for internal purposes - that's a contradiction. The internet is a public place. It was a completed online, pro looking website available to all and indexed by Google and all search engines and therefore was being advertised, all working for people to sign up with bank details of where the overseas students should send the money. Test it online if you like but then disable it, it takes a few seconds. Very fishy. I shall be watching this one carefully - from a safe distance. Agree 100%. Makes no sense. Also there were at least 2 websites with different college names. Really disappointed this has gone ahead today.
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am
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Post by am on Aug 8, 2017 11:50:02 GMT
Morning, My apologies for the delay in posting. We have been spending quite considerable time since the start of this thread, reviewing our file on this loan and also speaking to the borrower, valuer & solicitors in case we have missed something. To be fair, we are still happy to present this loan on the platform and none of our follow up enquiries have surfaced anything which causes concern (I was quite prepared to pull the loan had there been anything adverse we had missed). In answer to the main points in this thread: 1 – Our borrower purchased an option at the end of 2015 when there was just the planning in place for the nursing home. The borrower subsequently purchased the property in May 2016 for £580,000 once revised planning was secured. (The sale listings which show offers over £500,000 are old cached versions pre-planning). 2 – The exit is from the development of the site (by us or another lender), and not the sale of the individual units. 3 – There is no issue with selling the ground rents for this type of property in Scotland whereby the units are sold as long leasehold on a commercial basis. (As there was a public holiday in Scotland yesterday, we were waiting to speak to our solicitor this morning to confirm). 4 – Whilst the RICS valuer’s firm is based in the south of England, they cover the whole country and have a good deal of experience valuing property all over Scotland. 5 – The proposed development retains the listed building. 6 – We are using a Scottish agent with respect to the legals. 7 - Side letter from the valuer attached to the listing. 8 - Website on the school was put up there for internal purposes and the URL had not been advertised for public access. This has since been taken down. Kind regards, Ed 1) This is the sort of information that ought to be put in the loan details. (If nothing else it's too easy for lenders to get the wrong end of the stick, and collectively take counsel of their fears.) 8) The website may not have been intentionally advertised for public access but Google had found and indexed it. Possibly Google found it by spidering the sites that scrape domain registrations. (They could have kept Google et al out by using robots.txt, but not everybody would have known this.) There's still a page up selling (but with ring for availability stated) accommodation at Paisley on the captive lettings site for the Burnley projects. But I'm not sure that website is intended to be live either; I'm not finding links into it. There are a number of red flags related to the principals' other businesses, which have been mentioned in this discussion.
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am
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Post by am on Aug 8, 2017 11:59:41 GMT
It was a completed online, pro looking website available to all and indexed by Google and all search engines and therefore was being advertised, all working for people to sign up with bank details of where the overseas students should send the money. Test it online if you like but then disable it, it takes a few seconds. Very fishy. I shall be watching this one carefully - from a safe distance. Hanlon's Razor - don't ascribe to malice what can be reasonably ascribed to incompetence. I'm not finding incoming links to the sites, so it's conceivable that they didn't realise that Google would have found and indexed the sites. Possibly I'm too trusting but in the absence of other red flags I might have let this pass.
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mikeh
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Post by mikeh on Aug 8, 2017 12:04:51 GMT
It was a completed online, pro looking website available to all and indexed by Google and all search engines and therefore was being advertised, all working for people to sign up with bank details of where the overseas students should send the money. Test it online if you like but then disable it, it takes a few seconds. Very fishy. I shall be watching this one carefully - from a safe distance. Hanlon's Razor - don't ascribe to malice what can be reasonably ascribed to incompetence. I'm not finding incoming links to the sites, so it's conceivable that they didn't realise that Google would have found and indexed the sites. Possibly I'm too trusting but in the absence of other red flags I might have let this pass. D********* Student Accommodation has a picture of the property and booking information for it.
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jaswells
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Post by jaswells on Aug 8, 2017 12:27:18 GMT
Spending a bit of time around the borrowers website does arouse suspicion. Past projects look dubious, with only vague comments on non specific residential projects and selected range of hotel projects, none of which can be validated through further research. With other question marks around the history of key personnel and a none too attractive look at companies house this requires some guts to invest in with the intention to hold to full term.
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Post by keyboardworrier on Aug 8, 2017 12:29:48 GMT
One of the guys involved was fined in 2015 for misuse of the term "Architect"
I am quite amazed that this loan has been allowed to proceed but I hope it turns out well for everyone who invests.
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am
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Post by am on Aug 8, 2017 12:39:09 GMT
Hanlon's Razor - don't ascribe to malice what can be reasonably ascribed to incompetence. I'm not finding incoming links to the sites, so it's conceivable that they didn't realise that Google would have found and indexed the sites. Possibly I'm too trusting but in the absence of other red flags I might have let this pass. <DSA> has a picture of the property and booking information for it. I'm not sure that's meant to be live either. Pinning things down isn't easy, but I'm entertaining the hypothesis that one of the Burnley projects ended up let via the University (the for sale advert has photographs showing a large hall of residence sign) and the other is running late and is not operational until next month.
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GeorgeT
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Post by GeorgeT on Aug 8, 2017 13:03:43 GMT
I was just reading the valuation report again. Perhaps this point has already been raised but I noted the following:
The valuer was instructed on 2 June 2017. The valuer states he inspected the property on 16 June 2017. The valuer notes that "it was a sunny day". The valuation report was dated 21 June 2017. (I assume this is also the date of valuation). The photos in the report are dated 16 May 2017.
At first I assumed this was because the valuer's camera date setting was 1 month out (saying May instead of June) but on observation of the photos they were clearly taken on a grey, cloudy, overcast day without a hint of sun or any shadows. I can't even see a break in the cloud.
Why didn't the valuer take his own up to date photos on the sunny day when he inspected. It seems odd for a valuer not to take his own photos and to use old photos supplied, presumably, by the borrower?
The alternative scenario is that the valuer did take the photos and 1. The date on his camera was wrong and 2. He made a mistake in reporting that it was sunny when it appears to have been heavily overcast day.
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guff
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Post by guff on Aug 8, 2017 13:06:35 GMT
<snip> 7 - Side letter from the valuer attached to the listing. <snip> Side letter says: "Finally we can confirm that the property has not been marketed since the current owners have purchased the site." VR says" "At the time of the inspection the property was vacant and had a FOR SALE board at the front of the site."
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Post by GSV3MIaC on Aug 8, 2017 13:10:40 GMT
Why didn't the valuer take his own up to date photos on the sunny day when he inspected. It seems odd for a valuer not to take his own photos and to use old photos supplied, presumably, by the borrower? The alternative scenario is that the valuer did take the photos and 1. The date on his camera was wrong and 2. He made a mistake in reporting that it was sunny when it appears to have been heavily overcast day. Those photos seemed to me to be a good match for those on the borrowers website(s) (which have now been pulled) .. the ones inviting students to sign up, rent rooms, etc, and investors to purchase said rooms.
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GeorgeT
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Post by GeorgeT on Aug 8, 2017 13:21:09 GMT
<snip> 7 - Side letter from the valuer attached to the listing. <snip> Side letter says: "Finally we can confirm that the property has not been marketed since the current owners have purchased the site." VR says" "At the time of the inspection the property was vacant and had a FOR SALE board at the front of the site." I noted that contradiction as well. No doubt the explanation will be that the board had been left up by mistake and even though there was a For Sale board outside it wasn't on the market. If that were the case, which it may have been, I would have expected the side letter to mention that, because a For Sale board is a form of marketing.
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paulgul
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Post by paulgul on Aug 8, 2017 13:49:15 GMT
Just a quick thanks to all those that have taken part in this thread, I had transferred funds for this loan but in light of the info raised here I have decided not to invest.
Paul
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oldgrumpy
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Post by oldgrumpy on Aug 8, 2017 13:55:36 GMT
The pictures of the accommodation rooms on the borrowers' websites were lovely. Strange that none of the building has actually been refurbished yet, so where did those photos come from? I did google some of them a couple of days ago but couldn't find any matching except on the borrowers' sites or connected marketing.
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