registerme
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Post by registerme on Sept 14, 2024 8:14:33 GMT
Picking at minor faults with what Harris had to say whilst deliberately ignoring the studio sized cesspit of dishonesty and falsehood discharged into every living room in the US by Trump is patently absurd. It's post-truth whataboutism gone mad. And bernythedolt , you're more than smart enough, well informed enough, and perceptive enough to realise this. So my question is... why? I simply don't understand it. EDIT: I should add that this wasn't aimed at Berny specifically, I just trust him to be able to supply a cogent answer .
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Sept 14, 2024 11:18:36 GMT
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eeyore
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Post by eeyore on Sept 14, 2024 12:12:46 GMT
If the President of the United States were able to deploy witchcraft in face-to-face meetings, just think of the advantages that would bring to the USA...
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Sept 14, 2024 12:18:27 GMT
Well, let's look down the headline... T - eating pets. Utter fabricated guff. H - sales tax. High-end third-party estimate. T - tariffs. Wrong. T - Ukraine. Wrong. H - highest unemployment on handover. Wrong. H+T - manufacturing. Neither inaccurate but both cherry-picking. T - migration. Wrong. T - everybody wanted to end Roe v Wade. Wrong. T - abortion post-birth. Stark-staring hatstand. H - T wants abortion ban. T denies plans. H - tie T to Project 2025. T denies links. H - T had "one of highest" trade deficits. Biden higher, but no mention of where on scale. T - cheated out of 2020. Codswallop. T - H wants to ban fracking. Has said either way (is that an actual POLICY point? Crikey!) H - T tax cut. Figure mildly debatable. T - H wants to take away everybody's guns. Cloud cuckoo. T - no inflation under me. Wrongliest. T - saved affordable care. Actually tried to repeal. T - crime higher than ever, FBI are lying. Actually voluntary stats from more cities than previously. T - Biden lied about jobs. Actually stat measure change. T - greatest economy. Ha. H - T wants to be dictator. T says was joking when he said that. T - H was border czar. Nope. T - Afghan equipment. Nope. So, yeh, take your pick on how that all stacks up... I make it H got one outright wrong, T got 15 (including some absolute scorching fabricated whoppers). There were a few debatables and "depends how you pick the figures" on both sides, with Trump coming up with a couple of "who, me?" to round it off. Never mind the "eating pets" guff, who would seriously launch that the "terminations after birth" line with a straight face? The moderation line that they're complaining about is... "“You can look at the governor of West Virginia, the previous governor of West Virginia,” Trump said. “He said ‘the baby will be born, and we will decide what to do with the baby. In other words, we’ll execute the baby.’ ”Linsey Davis of ABC News, one of the debate’s moderators, responded with a fact check: “There is no state in this country where it is legal to kill a baby after it’s born.”edition.cnn.com/2024/09/12/health/trump-abortion-after-birth/index.htmlWhat's controversial about a simple statement of fact? There is indeed no state that allows babies to be killed post-birth. Reality - "It appears to stem from comments made by former Virginia (not West Virginia) Gov. Ralph Northam, a Democrat and pediatric neurologist, in an interview with Washington, DC, radio station WTOP in 2019....Northam noted that abortions in the third trimester of pregnancy are “done in cases where there may be severe deformities, there may be a fetus that’s nonviable. So in this particular example, if a mother is in labor, I can tell you exactly what would happen: The infant would be delivered; the infant would be kept comfortable; the infant would be resuscitated, if that’s what the mother and the family desired. And then a discussion would ensue between the physicians and the mother.”"And how many of those mistakes/lies/inaccuracies was Harris called out for by the moderators exactly? Not one, according to the clip. Rather than outright lies here, I personally believe, at least in some cases, Trump exaggerates, he hasn't entirely mastered the topic so ends up spouting half-truths and laying himself open to ridicule. Taking a couple of your examples:- T - H wants to take away everybody's guns. Cloud cuckoo.
Harris is on record saying she would compulsorily buy back certain weapons, but has more recently stepped back on that. Why her U-turn? I don't think that's clear. Far from cloud cuckoo, though, you can surely see there is an element of truth in Trump's claim? It's not completely outrageous - certainly not cloud cuckoo - and if gun ownership is very important to you as a voter, he's right to point out the potential attack on your existing rights. Ok, "everybody's guns" is one of his silly exaggerations, but there is still a nugget of truth in there. The moderators and their instantaneous fact checking don't get under the surface like this, they only see black and white, so Trump "chalks up another lie" on something of a technicality. T - no inflation under me. Wrongliest.
Again, he was largely right, but exaggerated too far. Inflation under his watch was consistently low, and way below the figure under Biden's tenure. Ok, it wasn't zero as he claimed and Biden's wasn't quite the highest ever on record as he suggested it * might* be, but the tenor of his assertion was correct, if not the precise detail. But again, it gets chalked up as another Trump lie. I see him cast in the same mould as Boris, not having full mastery of his facts, a bit of a blusterer, thus making it easy for others to pick holes in his story, even if it does contain a nugget of truth. T - abortion post-birth. Stark-staring hatstand.From your final para, resuscitated if that's what the mother [...] desired.... And if the mother doesn't? The infant is allowed to die, post-birth. This, I believe, is what Trump was referring to when he questioned Harris on abortions in the 8th month, 7th month, 9th month, "or even after birth". It sounds ridiculous taken out of context as you and many others automatically like to do. Do you honestly think Trump is stupid enough to believe a foetus can be aborted post-birth? Or do the Trump haters automatically lock onto his unfortunate layman's turn of phrase in their disingenuous way to ridicule the actual message he was trying to get across? Don't get me wrong, I don't particularly like the man, but I do like to see fair play. Now let me mirror some of your advice back to you in the nicest way possible. You are clearly right and he is clearly not right so lets just leave it there. Actually given how much work he put into that, I'm starting to wonder if he is the second chatgpt-to-p2pforum interface we have here. Lets start the process of finding out. Adrianv4.01: Can you give an example of what makes you embarrassed ?
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Post by bernythedolt on Sept 14, 2024 12:48:34 GMT
Taking a couple of your examples:- Not my examples. The bullet points from that factchecker. Can you see the huge difference between "take away everybody's guns" and "buy back automatic assault rifles"? As an international marksman who’s shot for England on multiple occasions, I could strip, clean and reassemble my guns while you’d still be working out which end to point…. so I’m gonna say yes, I do understand the difference in weaponry! I’ll repeat the point, since I’ve obviously missed the target (see what I did there?). Harris bends with the wind on firearms. I happen to support her (erstwhile) mandatory buyback idea for the most dangerous weapons, it’s very sensible, but that’s not the point. Politically, Trump is right to highlight her vacillation on the topic – she has shown herself to be highly volatile - as a warning to those voters for whom this would be an important matter. She is so volatile on the subject that she *could* even be considering revoking the 2nd Amendment. How would voters know? Trump's gone about it clumsily here with his usual trademark exaggerations gilding the lily, but that doesn’t make him an outright liar on the subject, nor put him in cloud cuckoo land.
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ilmoro
Member of DD Central
'Wondering which of the bu***rs to blame, and watching for pigs on the wing.' - Pink Floyd
Posts: 11,213
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Post by ilmoro on Sept 14, 2024 13:11:23 GMT
I see the Pope hasnt endorsed either of them
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Trump
Sept 14, 2024 13:17:54 GMT
Post by bernythedolt on Sept 14, 2024 13:17:54 GMT
Picking at minor faults with what Harris had to say whilst deliberately ignoring the studio sized cesspit of dishonesty and falsehood discharged into every living room in the US by Trump is patently absurd. It's post-truth whataboutism gone mad. And bernythedolt , you're more than smart enough, well informed enough, and perceptive enough to realise this. So my question is... why? I simply don't understand it. EDIT: I should add that this wasn't aimed at Berny specifically, I just trust him to be able to supply a cogent answer . In a nutshell, I make due allowance for the man's natural tendency to embellish and exaggerate. And BTW it happened (to a lesser degree, granted) in the other direction too, but was never picked up by the moderators. Whether you consider this head-to-head clash was biased is very subjective, with so many entrenched views about the man, and people taking their polarised position, so rather than waste a lot of time I'm going to bow out and leave it there, save for one more example on the topic of inflation which got raised. Under Trump's four year term, CPI went up a total of 7.6%. That's a small rise averaging ~1.9% annually. Under Biden, it shot up 9.1% in one year, the biggest increase since 1981. Speaking unscripted, Trump described this as "no..., virtually no" inflation during his presidency, versus "the highest inflation perhaps in the history of our country" under Biden. Was he right, wrong, outright lying, or simply embellishing? Some politicians are apt to gild the lily when driving home a point. So, although he's wrong to exaggerate to quite that extent, in essence he's right with the salient point about hugely differing inflation under both administrations. 9.1% was certainly the highest in 40 years anyway and one might concede 1.9% is close to "virtually none". We are now down to technicalities - his use of "perhaps" should be taken into account better than it has been, too. It renders that phrase a throwaway comment, but it hasn't been interpreted that way by the ‘haters’ who instantly brand the whole idea as one giant lie. Now, I interpret his assertion as more of an embellishment, an exaggeration, rather than outright lie. Yet adrianc interprets it as complete poppycock ("wrongliest" and "not even close"). Which I find an interesting example of how a pre-existing entrenched view can colour matters, even when the hard data is there. So was it a naked Trump lie, a half-truth or an exaggeration of a complete truth? How you interpret this could make for an interesting introspective exercise.
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Trump
Sept 14, 2024 13:35:21 GMT
Post by bernythedolt on Sept 14, 2024 13:35:21 GMT
Of note there, though, is the unsubstantiated claim that ABC had given the questions to Harris in advance. Imagine the uproar if found to be true! With Harris and the ABC chief being close friends, it's not beyond the realms of possibility.... just saying. How long until Trump latches on to this one...
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registerme
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Post by registerme on Sept 14, 2024 14:51:47 GMT
Thanks bernythedolt . I happen to agree that Biden's economic policies are open to criticism (mind you, so are Trump's), and that Harris shares some responsibility there. The Inflation Reduction Act was anything but. I've pulled this quote of Trump's from your post - "the highest inflation perhaps in the history of our country" - I've done so for two reasons, first because it exemplifies my issues with Trump, and secondly because our interpretations are so different (which I find interesting). Trump litters what he has to say with "perhaps", "maybe", "some people say", "I've heard it said" etc. We all use terms like those some of the time. I've never, ever heard anybody else use them so consistently. To me it screams insincerity because every time he uses a phrase like that it gives him wriggle room - "I didn't say that, I said that some people say that...". My interpretation is that does everything he can to avoid being held to account for anything. Your interpretation is much more... forgiving .
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keitha
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2024, hopefully the year I get out of P2P
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Trump
Sept 14, 2024 16:33:23 GMT
Post by keitha on Sept 14, 2024 16:33:23 GMT
Thanks bernythedolt . I happen to agree that Biden's economic policies are open to criticism (mind you, so are Trump's), and that Harris shares some responsibility there. The Inflation Reduction Act was anything but. I've pulled this quote of Trump's from your post - "the highest inflation perhaps in the history of our country" - I've done so for two reasons, first because it exemplifies my issues with Trump, and secondly because our interpretations are so different (which I find interesting). Trump litters what he has to say with "perhaps", "maybe", "some people say", "I've heard it said" etc. We all use terms like those some of the time. I've never, ever heard anybody else use them so consistently. To me it screams insincerity because every time he uses a phrase like that it gives him wriggle room - "I didn't say that, I said that some people say that...". My interpretation is that does everything he can to avoid being held to account for anything. Your interpretation is much more... forgiving . LOL that peppering is perhaps similar to Ian Hislop saying "Manchester city are definately guilty on all 115 charges ......... Allegedly"
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spiral
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Post by spiral on Sept 15, 2024 6:29:43 GMT
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Post by captainconfident on Sept 15, 2024 11:56:17 GMT
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agent69
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Post by agent69 on Sept 15, 2024 12:54:37 GMT
Looks like Tangoman has lost in court yet again
Former US President Donald Trump has been found liable to pay damages to London singer and songwriter Eddy Grant for using his song Electric Avenue without permission. It has taken Mr Grant, 76, more than four years to sue the Republican candidate in this year’s presidential election in the US courts, over his 2020 campaign video that used a 40-second clip of the song. The video was viewed 13.7 million times before Twitter, now known as X, took it down.
A federal judge in Manhattan ruled Mr Trump breached Mr Grant's copyright for his 1983 hit, and is now liable for damages as well as paying for the singer's legal fees.
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Trump
Sept 15, 2024 13:58:48 GMT
Post by bracknellboy on Sept 15, 2024 13:58:48 GMT
He is funny. Most of the time. I sometimes get bored of the somewhat repetitive nature of his feed, but nonetheless: "mostly funny" and "mostly harmless"
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agent69
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Trump
Sept 15, 2024 14:57:52 GMT
Post by agent69 on Sept 15, 2024 14:57:52 GMT
"mostly funny" and "mostly harmless" But is he mostly accurate?
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