agent69
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Trump
Jun 1, 2024 9:49:46 GMT
Post by agent69 on Jun 1, 2024 9:49:46 GMT
Attack Trump verdict or be exiled - a new test for Republicans
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agent69
Member of DD Central
Posts: 5,943
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Post by agent69 on Jun 1, 2024 9:51:06 GMT
Thought the Daily Mirror had it about right - Deluded, Deranged and Dangerous
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warn
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Curmudgeon
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Trump
Jun 1, 2024 11:21:59 GMT
Post by warn on Jun 1, 2024 11:21:59 GMT
Thought the Daily Mirror had it about right - Deluded, Deranged and Dangerous That makes him sound quite Byronic. "Mad, bad, and dangerous to know"
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james100
Member of DD Central
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Trump
Jun 1, 2024 11:34:53 GMT
Post by james100 on Jun 1, 2024 11:34:53 GMT
Thought the Daily Mirror had it about right - Deluded, Deranged and Dangerous That makes him sound quite Byronic. "Mad, bad, and dangerous to know" I've always associated 'Byronic' with high intelligence and a darkly attractive, slightly tortured soul. Which would make Trump 'Anti-Byronic'
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k6
Posts: 248
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Trump
Jun 1, 2024 18:54:48 GMT
Post by k6 on Jun 1, 2024 18:54:48 GMT
It has obviously damaged his chances since some people will not vote for a convicted felon - which is the whole point of this lawfare against him. It has nothing to do with the fact he might have broken the law with some dodgy accounting, it is the use of the Law to damage a political opponent by the current administration - which should worry all Americans even if they dont like Trump. It is exactly that. Its not Might, its been done. This man does not know what is Fair game. This man does not got to where he is by Fair game. The only thing that should worry Americans is the share fact someone like Trump got as far as this. And the awakening should come as quick as possible
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michaelc
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Post by michaelc on Jun 1, 2024 19:14:57 GMT
It has obviously damaged his chances since some people will not vote for a convicted felon - which is the whole point of this lawfare against him. It has nothing to do with the fact he might have broken the law with some dodgy accounting, it is the use of the Law to damage a political opponent by the current administration - which should worry all Americans even if they dont like Trump. Yes I agree. Don't think I ever heard your views on the Brexit referendum and the aftermath but there's something similar (or worse) going on here in the US. His crime is virtually a technicality. If I hated Trump I would still be worried about what this means for democracy. Biden or whoever on the other side will be next. Its really starting to look like the US is going to turn away from democracy - not that it was really a place where any man or woman could stand as you needed a few hundred million dollars to get you going....
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registerme
Member of DD Central
Posts: 6,524
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Trump
Jun 1, 2024 19:41:35 GMT
Post by registerme on Jun 1, 2024 19:41:35 GMT
His crime is virtually a technicality. I don't really understand your thinking here. If his crime is "virtually a technicality" then... Why is it on the statue books at all? Why is it potentially punishable by a prison term? Why did all attempts to change the judge / move the trial location fail? Why did the jury (which, if you remember, went through a pretty exacting jury selection) find Trump guilty, unanimously, on all 34 charges? Any one of them could have gone "this is bullsh1t, I won't find him guilty on this technicality" and it would have been a split jury or a mistrial or something. But that didn't happen, did it.
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angrysaveruk
Member of DD Central
Back and to the left..
Posts: 1,213
Likes: 719
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Post by angrysaveruk on Jun 1, 2024 20:37:48 GMT
It has obviously damaged his chances since some people will not vote for a convicted felon - which is the whole point of this lawfare against him. It has nothing to do with the fact he might have broken the law with some dodgy accounting, it is the use of the Law to damage a political opponent by the current administration - which should worry all Americans even if they dont like Trump. Yes I agree. Don't think I ever heard your views on the Brexit referendum and the aftermath but there's something similar (or worse) going on here in the US. His crime is virtually a technicality. If I hated Trump I would still be worried about what this means for democracy. Biden or whoever on the other side will be next. Its really starting to look like the US is going to turn away from democracy - not that it was really a place where any man or woman could stand as you needed a few hundred million dollars to get you going.... I voted for Brexit. At the time I was sort of 60/40 on it, I thought it would probably make the UK poorer but as a libertarian/individualist I was against the autocratic nature of the EU. Given what has happened to the German economy after the US blew up Nordstream and the military nightmare the EU has made by antagonising Russia I think Brexit was one of the best political/economic decisions the UK has ever made. I doubt the EU will be around in 10 years so the re-joiners like Starmer, Bracknel, AdrianC and RegisterMe better hurry up if they want to get back on board the Titanic before it goes down.
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michaelc
Member of DD Central
Posts: 5,422
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Trump
Jun 1, 2024 21:27:47 GMT
Post by michaelc on Jun 1, 2024 21:27:47 GMT
His crime is virtually a technicality. I don't really understand your thinking here. If his crime is "virtually a technicality" then... Why is it on the statue books at all? Why is it potentially punishable by a prison term? Why did all attempts to change the judge / move the trial location fail? Why did the jury (which, if you remember, went through a pretty exacting jury selection) find Trump guilty, unanimously, on all 34 charges? Any one of them could have gone "this is bullsh1t, I won't find him guilty on this technicality" and it would have been a split jury or a mistrial or something. But that didn't happen, did it. Maybe "technicality" was the wrong word to use. Something like an unpaid speeding ticket was what I was looking for. That to risk the trashing of democracy is madness.
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k6
Posts: 248
Likes: 147
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Trump
Jun 1, 2024 21:51:32 GMT
Post by k6 on Jun 1, 2024 21:51:32 GMT
I don't really understand your thinking here. If his crime is "virtually a technicality" then... Why is it on the statue books at all? Why is it potentially punishable by a prison term? Why did all attempts to change the judge / move the trial location fail? Why did the jury (which, if you remember, went through a pretty exacting jury selection) find Trump guilty, unanimously, on all 34 charges? Any one of them could have gone "this is bullsh1t, I won't find him guilty on this technicality" and it would have been a split jury or a mistrial or something. But that didn't happen, did it. Maybe "technicality" the wrong word to use. Something like an unpaid speeding ticket was what I was looking for. That to risk the trashing of democracy is madness. Its a saving democracy. Something that some straggle to grasp or want others to see it this way.
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michaelc
Member of DD Central
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Trump
Jun 1, 2024 22:34:04 GMT
Post by michaelc on Jun 1, 2024 22:34:04 GMT
Maybe "technicality" the wrong word to use. Something like an unpaid speeding ticket was what I was looking for. That to risk the trashing of democracy is madness. Its a saving democracy. Something that some straggle to grasp or want others to see it this way. struggle
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adrianc
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Post by adrianc on Jun 2, 2024 6:21:52 GMT
That makes him sound quite Byronic. "Mad, bad, and dangerous to know" I've always associated 'Byronic' with high intelligence and a darkly attractive, slightly tortured soul. Which would make Trump 'Anti-Byronic' Modern-Byronic. Although there's a portmanteau shortened version.
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Post by overthehill on Jun 2, 2024 8:27:54 GMT
It's not left and right, it's clever and dumb in the US.
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Post by bracknellboy on Jun 2, 2024 9:46:19 GMT
Putting a former president on trial in front of a free jury is not an 'undermining of democracy'. On the contrary it is a reinforcement and one could even say a celebration of democracy: it demonstrates the critical principal principle that no-one is above the law, whoever or whatever they are.
Former president Sarkozy was put on trial, convicted and indeed given a custodial sentence (upheld on appeal, Feb 24). Perhaps interestingly that had at its core falsification of election spending, so not a million miles away from what Trump was on trial for.
The key point of the trial - falsification of business records - appears to have been pretty much a cut and dried case, given the evidence trail and the unanimous guilty verdict by 12 sifted and selected jurors. A potential issue/concern was charging and prosecuting the offence in the 1st degree i.e. on the basis it was to cover up/hide another crime. Which elevated it to a felony rather than a misdemeanour. Under the circumstances that could be viewed as a bit of a stretch. And the jury weren't I don't believe given the option of finding guilty on a lesser offence. That is where an appeal might have some grounds. Nonetheless, the jury still found him guilty when even one of them could have just said 'No - he falsified records but insufficient evidence that it was to hide a crime'.
Political appointment of judges and DAs - the latter being subject to election IIRC - is alien to us. So we find it a bit of a problem. And it puts the system under strain and suspicion in cases like this. But it is the system the US has. I don't think Merchan is a political appointment. But even if he is, I do not think there is any evidence that the judge was politically influenced, and I suspect that is true of the vast majority of judges. Was the DA's bringing of the charges political ? Quite possibly, certainly the effort to ramp up to a felony smells a bit.
However, these are the least of the charges Trump faces. More concerning in my view is the confidential documents case. And in that case, it does seem like the Trump appointed judge is a Trump 'fangirl' and is doing everything possible to hold up the case. Regardless of political persuasion, that does democracy no good at all. The ramifications of the alleged crime are pretty serious (given how Trump is alleged to have made use of some of them) and the case should be heard, whatever the eventual verdict.
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angrysaveruk
Member of DD Central
Back and to the left..
Posts: 1,213
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Trump
Jun 2, 2024 10:14:45 GMT
Post by angrysaveruk on Jun 2, 2024 10:14:45 GMT
Putting a former president on trial in front of a free jury is not an 'undermining of democracy'. On the contrary it is a reinforcement and one could even say a celebration of democracy: it demonstrates the critical principal that no-one is above the law, whoever or whatever they are.
Google "Bill Clinton" *
* - You will find it hard to explain unless you accept the "law" in the US does not apply to everyone.
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